Taxacom: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of wrong usage - the Dasytes case

Wed Jan 29 18:19:02 CST 2025

I would think that it's not the ending -της in Wiktionary that is relevant;
it's just the lexical entry for the full word in LSJ and other standard
Greek dictionaries. Again, there's no question that δασυτης is feminine.

"Standard dictionary" isn't defined anywhere, but for this, LSJ normally
works. I use https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flogeion.uchicago.edu%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933201960702%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=68NYMn6rMbrtLli4PQs%2FDdyucmRSJTKYYoI6mvneD24%3D&reserved=0 more and more, because it
scrapes from multiple dictionaries. Wikipedia isn't always right.

Before updating Wikispecies, Wikipedia, BugGuide, iNat, etc - it's
important to leave a papertrail explaining the rational and showing which
names were changed. A short correspondence article to Zootaxa should work.
If Dr. Plonski needs help with drafting or reviewing that, I'd be happy to
help, and I'm sure that Douglas would also be up for reviewing at least
before hand.

> The rules in the Code are not especially difficult to apply or adhere to.

I'm not sure about this. It's confusing, which means it is hard sometimes.

Best,
R

On Thu, Jan 30, 2025 at 1:10 PM Douglas Yanega via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

> On 1/29/25 3:29 PM, Michael Heads wrote:
> >
> >
> >         You are probably right. But the only other name ending in
> >         -otes I could think of was Monotes, formed in the same way,
> >         meaning uniqueness, and it's always treated as masculine. Were
> >         the botanists and zoologists going from this (from Wiktionary):
> >
> > *-της* •
> > <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2FWiktionary%3AAncient_Greek_transliteration&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933201979051%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7hbsTZiVrJSRnYzWRW4UbY6UyEp1PyZNlgbuvmSSFhQ%3D&reserved=0> (-tēs)
>
> > m (/genitive/ *-του
> > <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2F-%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CF%2585%23Ancient_Greek&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933201991898%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=eAZO7QZDc36YGhnhnKLu2Iwa1sZSvubtGaSBEOa9HeQ%3D&reserved=0>*);
> > /first declension
> > <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2FAppendix%3AAncient_Greek_first_declension&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202004613%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=unHCpAqrdepQusRIv%2FeiDWDtCWFq%2FVTYKgSJ1ZLzhnU%3D&reserved=0
> >/
> >
> >  1. Added to noun stems to form masculine nouns of the person
> >     concerned with a thing
> >  2. Added to verb stems to form masculine agent nouns: -er
> >     <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2F-er%23English&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202016472%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=u2Xg%2B0OOljNKHSoJ04HGVPd3GQ1AVBB9u4qJVitScEg%3D&reserved=0>
> >  3. Added to place names to form masculine demonyms
> >     <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2Fdemonym%23English&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202029473%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=v3dwbLxo5a35wef2tQwiX5gD1VV0vJOh2fy5Edet4Ck%3D&reserved=0>: -ian
> >     <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2F-ian%23English&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202043073%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=28mxjeB2%2F1y0fm6fNYsRR88lOaVTwd7yDqO5HDzGng8%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> LOL - you're cheating, perhaps not deliberately.
>
> The page you're citing in Wiktionary is this one:
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2F-%25CF%2584%25CE%25B7%25CF%2582%23Ancient_Greek&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202055185%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=v%2BJvUv65giaB8DvhRr%2Bpi5cXCrIjxXya3boG%2BolknWk%3D&reserved=0
>
> Which gives two definitions, and each with a different gender.
>
> You're citing definition #2.
>
> Definition #1 reads as follows:
>
>
>         Suffix
>
> [edit
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3D-%25CF%2584%25CE%25B7%25CF%2582%26action%3Dedit%26section%3D5&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202066772%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=OQ4I62lAsLcL7BO%2F088uX7XNOIJZ7ctXW8WI7d6wFN4%3D&reserved=0
> >]
>
> *-της*•
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2FWiktionary%3AAncient_Greek_transliteration&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202078432%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=k0hxtSE9Xiih4SX%2FtgUOsCgkGQ2D1AJmCO2YM8HyXFs%3D&reserved=0>(-tēs)
>
> f(/genitive/*-τητος
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3D-%25CF%2584%25CE%25B7%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CF%2582%26action%3Dedit%26redlink%3D1&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202089935%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0jI38djfP5wVIABtwjg6lCd4TuTuUaE1UnNbh7qWkMI%3D&reserved=0>*);/third
>
> declension
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2FAppendix%3AAncient_Greek_third_declension&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202101930%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2Bd28xef8ZTE8HTJWk6I%2BgqNhdc2NmZeIRmSb%2FIB4KU0%3D&reserved=0>/(Attic
>
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAttic_Greek&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202113558%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=tEV8XgwyMWGfxbEegjWhcy%2B951lfon2J5ZpiOPRbvbI%3D&reserved=0>)
>
>  1. Forms nouns representing a state of being
>
> And THIS is the definition that applies to "dasytes", which is the state
> of being covered in hairs (dasys + tes).
>
> The endings "-es" and "-tes" in Greek DO NOT have fixed gender. Some are
> masculine, some are feminine, and not all of them are suffixes.
>
> In Greek, about the only *suffixes* that appear to have fixed gender are
> "-e" and "-is" (from -ις, *not* -ης), both feminine.
>
> As for Mike Ivie's question:
>
> "Define "the Dictionary" please.  I can write a dictionary, can we use
> that dictionary?"
>
> The Code DOES define which dictionary, e.g., for Greek:
>
> "30.1.2. a genus-group name that is or ends in a Greek word
> transliterated into Latin without other changes takes the gender given
> for that word *in standard Greek dictionaries*;"
>
> Unless the dictionary you write is considered a standard Greek
> dictionary, it's not an accepted source. Note that the entries in
> Perseus and Wiktionary both cite which standard Greek dictionaries they
> are based on, and when they cite standard Greek dictionaries, they do
> comply with the Code.
>
> e.g., in Wiktionary, the sources for dasytes being feminine are
>
>   * “δασύτης
>     <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.perseus.tufts.edu%2Fhopper%2Ftext%3Fdoc%3DPerseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ddasu%2Fths&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202125114%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=edhlDN7UK3IrAhG9yzpM2nUX%2FflmW1dJ0K5ZtCaZ6Pk%3D&reserved=0
> >”,
>     inLiddell & Scott (1940)A Greek–English Lexicon
>     <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FA_Greek-English_Lexicon&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202136631%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YPxET9F0k7joQBaHO4%2BPhJkYQ%2Ft0rHhQwNyRmurykqY%3D&reserved=0>, Oxford:
>     Clarendon Press
>   * δασύτης
>     <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fstream%2FBaillyDictionnaireGrecFrancais%2FBailly_DictionnaireGrecFrancais%23page%2Fn432%2Fmode%2F1up&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202148414%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Tw9sT8R8HeBMlvKfU4yIpiQTuyT6mxJL5uR%2FlygXA00%3D&reserved=0
> >inBailly,
>     Anatole (1935)Le Grand Bailly: Dictionnaire grec-français
>     <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2Ffr%3ADictionnaire_grec-fran%25C3%25A7ais_&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202160193%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=g0%2FPvSSkocyxWMbgMz%2BMwoPoLLk%2FDNzn7W4vHEouCQM%3D&reserved=0(Bailly)
> >,
>     Paris: Hachette
>   * δασύτης
>     <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdge.cchs.csic.es%2Fxdge%2F%25CE%25B4%25CE%25B1%25CF%2583%25CF%258D%25CF%2584%25CE%25B7%25CF%2582&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202172595%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iSr7M0GUpo0otihgGNg3PYiax7%2FuZ1rXQb4rNKmZAfM%3D&reserved=0>in
>     the/Diccionario Griego–Español
>     <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDiccionario_Griego%25E2%2580%2593Espa%25C3%25B1ol&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202185603%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GXZkN2ygASE7jfE9v8fDhcX0RT4qKmDAVNcRogNGqBs%3D&reserved=0
> >/en
>     línea (2006–2025)
>
> There is no question that the genus name Dasytes is feminine under
> Article 30.1.2. It shouldn't take very long to change the entries in
> Wikispecies, Wikipedia, BugGuide, and iNaturalist to comply, because
> those sources are possible to update when necessary.
>
> Peace,
>
> --
> Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology       Entomology Research Museum
> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314  voicemail:951-827-8704
> FaceBook: Doug Yanega (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
>               https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffaculty.ucr.edu%2F~heraty%2Fyanega.html&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57f0d6d934334dc1baf408dd40c3bb60%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638737933202203182%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C80000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xsvJ4EpH3%2Ff71zUje4If0V6TTFoiCuTrnax4h%2BYy0L0%3D&reserved=0
>    "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
>          is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
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