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Taxacom: Gender agreement is easy - beer example

Scott Thomson scott.thomson321 at gmail.com
Tue Jul 4 22:12:41 CDT 2023 

Jose said

Scott wrote that " Its not about making lists, lists are easy and anyone
can do that." There, I respectfully disagree. If list were that easy and
anyone could do that, how come they are not available for many taxa?

Sorry think you misunderstood what I meant by that I was implying
comparatively easier than automating them. From the work I have been
involved with with Global Species lists, with Richard Pyle also on that
group I know how hard it is to develop global lists. But making them useful
is even harder.

Cheers Scott

Em ter., 4 de jul. de 2023 às 23:25, Jose Fernandez-Triana via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> escreveu:

> Hello again,
>
> I very much welcome this debate and appreciate all of the comments and
> perspectives that have been shared over the past 2-3 weeks (even in cases
> where I disagree, I have found that the discussion has brought up several
> points of views that I either did not know or had not thought about in that
> particular way). Thus, at least on a personal level I want to thank anyone
> that has contributed.
>
> And I realize that in my previous emails I did not state my preference,
> which is pretty much to ignore the gender agreement. I just do not think
> that this is the key point or the main problem (I may be wrong on that
> assumption, I am not claiming here that I have THE correct position!). But,
> in my opinion, having master lists for taxa (and having those lists
> compiled by experts working together) would solve the vast majority of
> those problems, and then some more.
>
> Scott wrote that " Its not about making lists, lists are easy and anyone
> can do that." There, I respectfully disagree. If list were that easy and
> anyone could do that, how come they are not available for many taxa? How
> come we are not even able to answer such a "simple" question like "how many
> wasp species are"? [You can change "wasp" for "beetles", "moths" and pretty
> much any hyperdiverse taxon that you like]. And how come when one looks
> into the many websites, databases and many biodiversity aggregators that
> have been mentioned here, the data for the hyperdiverse taxa is either very
> incomplete or even worse: misleading? It is not that easy to compile that
> info, no matter how smart, skilful or passionate IT people are, and unless
> we get the wider taxonomic community involved and committed to get those
> master lists, we will continue the same way, doing some progress (like Rich
> Pyle and others here are doing) but still missing the mark... And yes, more
> money and resources would certainly help, but it would also help to get the
> community that so lively discusses here more involved on things like that.
>
> Of course, lists are not magical resources that would solve all problems,
> but I think they would help with things like gender agreement (and
> misspellings, as someone else said today, and other similar issues).
>
> In the end I am happy to follow what the ICZN decides (hopefully based on
> the input of as many colleagues as possible). And so far I have dutifully
> followed the gender agreement even though I would prefer not to (in that
> way I am a "pseudolepidopterist", at least I can claim that my study group
> is the main group of Lep parasitoids! ;-)
>
> But what I think the last few days of discussion here show is that perhaps
> we could channel all of those ideas (and enthusiasm!?) to take even bigger
> steps... At least I want to end my day today thinking that could be
> possible. Once again, thanks to everyone for the shared wisdom.
>
> Cheers,
> Jose
>
> --
> José L. Fernández-Triana, Ph.D.
> Research Scientist, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
> Canadian National Collection of Insects (CNC)
> 960 Carling Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0C6, CANADA
> Phone: 613-759-1034. Email: jose.fernandez at agr.gc.ca
> Alternative email: cnc.braconidae at gmail.com
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 9:15 PM Michael Heads via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> > I couldn't resist looking up 'glochidiatusum': 'The species epithet
> > refers to the shape of epandrium, which is spheroid in dorsal view'.
> > Ludicrous name and mad etymology, but published in the European Journal
> of
> > Taxonomy!
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 12:28 PM Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Well-meaning attempts to conform to gender agreement have given us this
> > > recent addition to the Lexicon: Cryptochetum glochidiatusum.  Scream
> all
> > > you want, this is reality and is the future with the current rules.  Is
> > > this neuter?  How would you even fix this?  I don't think it can be
> > fixed?
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > On 7/4/2023 5:24 PM, Scott Thomson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ***External Sender***
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Michael a perfect example of my point re computers, computers
> > > > cannot "feel" the correct answer that requires what we call common
> > > > sense, and computers are idiots when it comes to common sense.
> > > >
> > > > I almost finished my last post on the other thread with this:
> > > >
> > > > If this were easy it would have been done and we would not be having
> > > > this conversation.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers Scott
> > > >
> > > > Em ter., 4 de jul. de 2023 às 20:03, Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom
> > > > <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> escreveu:
> > > >
> > > >     I have renamed this so that I am not replying to any specific
> > > >     person's
> > > >     comment and cut off the tail.
> > > >
> > > >     Regarding gender agreement.  For those that think that learning a
> > few
> > > >     simple rules and then just knowing what the answer is, let's look
> > > >     at a
> > > >     real world example we can all appreciate - from Beer. Everyone
> who
> > > >     has
> > > >     taken a few introduction to Spanish classes, or who grew up with
> > > >     Spanish
> > > >     speakers, or has a working grasp of Spanish that works for
> > > >     travel,  but
> > > >     did not get a degree in Spanish Language, knows the simple rules
> of
> > > >     gender agreement in Spanish. You can follow it because it sounds
> > > >     right,
> > > >     and "feels" right.
> > > >
> > > >     However, there is an excellent (my opinion) Mexican beer named
> > Negra
> > > >     Modelo.  Clearly, Modelo ends in an "o" and is masculine, so the
> > > >     modifier must conform and also end in an "o."  So this name is
> > wrong,
> > > >     and many many people say "Negro Modelo" or "Negra Modela" as a
> > > >     reflexive
> > > >     conformity to gender agreement (similar to correcting a species
> > name
> > > >     with the "wrong" ending).  Why would a company screw this up like
> > > >     this?
> > > >
> > > >     Well, in an example just like what happens with scientific names,
> > > >     deeper
> > > >     knowledge of a language is needed than having a basic working
> > > >     knowledge
> > > >     of a language in order to get the details correct. "Modelo,"
> > meaning
> > > >     "style or fashion" is a Greek borrow-word taken into Spanish as a
> > > >     direct
> > > >     form.  In Greek that last "o" is feminine (in this case), so it
> > > >     retains
> > > >     its feminine form in Spanish and modifiers conform by ending in
> an
> > > >     "a."
> > > >     How the ### are you supposed to just know that?  Same happens
> with
> > > >     "El
> > > >     Drama."
> > > >
> > > >     Gender agreement that is absolutely and always correct is not
> > > >     something
> > > >     perfectly easy to a non-fluent speaker - of any language.
> > > >
> > > >     Keep it or get rid of it, but don't call it easy and simple.
> > > >
> > > >     Mike
> > > >
> > > >     --
> > > >     __________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > >     Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> > > >
> > > >     NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on
> carriers
> > > >
> > > >     US Post Office Address:
> > > >     Montana Entomology Collection
> > > >     Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > > >     PO Box 173145
> > > >     Montana State University
> > > >     Bozeman, MT 59717
> > > >     USA
> > > >
> > > >     UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
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> > > >     Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > > >     1911 West Lincoln Street
> > > >     Montana State University
> > > >     Bozeman, MT 59718
> > > >     USA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >     (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> > > >     (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> > > >     mivie at montana.edu
> > > >
> > > >     _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >     Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring
> > > >     alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Scott Thomson
> > > >
> > > > Centro de Estudos dos Quelônios da Amazônia - CEQUA
> > > > Petrópolis, Manaus
> > > > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > > > Brasil
> > > >
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> > > > <
> > >
> >
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> > > >
> > > > Skype: Faendalimas
> > > > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > > > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> > > >
> > > --
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >
> > > Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> > >
> > > NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
> > >
> > > US Post Office Address:
> > > Montana Entomology Collection
> > > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > > PO Box 173145
> > > Montana State University
> > > Bozeman, MT 59717
> > > USA
> > >
> > > UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> > > Montana Entomology Collection
> > > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > > 1911 West Lincoln Street
> > > Montana State University
> > > Bozeman, MT 59718
> > > USA
> > >
> > >
> > > (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> > > (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> > > mivie at montana.edu
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > > https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
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> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57fdfe503ba74c6c2cd508db7d04cea6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241231847584773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=cy3tE8R0pbXCwtJPNAJlV8Wj2UnWmLqRbLKltIgnKf8%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration
> for
> > > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My books:
> >
> > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> > Raton FL. 2017.
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57fdfe503ba74c6c2cd508db7d04cea6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241231847584773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZXMrhSmj7GBfKAE4SL%2Bsem%2FhArb3acVM4bJRevj%2F81o%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> University
> > Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57fdfe503ba74c6c2cd508db7d04cea6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241231847584773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zYYd%2FamAhstFlcSGABPy42QmBXihz83bqtJ0VGVjMKI%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> Press,
> > Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57fdfe503ba74c6c2cd508db7d04cea6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241231847584773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7ctcc1HP3gWf0eSPMnT%2FgLIzTJC%2BqADlxBaireMcAqQ%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> > New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57fdfe503ba74c6c2cd508db7d04cea6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241231847584773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qjMJHeqNsiaqMm0%2FtdqkH0ZpWaBPujjKMs4%2B3bG493o%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57fdfe503ba74c6c2cd508db7d04cea6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241231847584773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JOyDfSJOtHu9r8M3VTXvQ9JPfOI4iJBh4kz5PfzJKJM%3D&reserved=0
> > >
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> >
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
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> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C57fdfe503ba74c6c2cd508db7d04cea6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241231847584773%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=cy3tE8R0pbXCwtJPNAJlV8Wj2UnWmLqRbLKltIgnKf8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>


-- 
Scott Thomson

Centro de Estudos dos Quelônios da Amazônia - CEQUA
Petrópolis, Manaus
State of Amazonas, 69055-010
Brasil

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