Taxacom: Gender agreement is easy - beer example
Jose Fernandez-Triana
cnc.braconidae at gmail.com
Tue Jul 4 21:24:55 CDT 2023
2023
Hello again,
I very much welcome this debate and appreciate all of the comments and
perspectives that have been shared over the past 2-3 weeks (even in cases
where I disagree, I have found that the discussion has brought up several
points of views that I either did not know or had not thought about in that
particular way). Thus, at least on a personal level I want to thank anyone
that has contributed.
And I realize that in my previous emails I did not state my preference,
which is pretty much to ignore the gender agreement. I just do not think
that this is the key point or the main problem (I may be wrong on that
assumption, I am not claiming here that I have THE correct position!). But,
in my opinion, having master lists for taxa (and having those lists
compiled by experts working together) would solve the vast majority of
those problems, and then some more.
Scott wrote that " Its not about making lists, lists are easy and anyone
can do that." There, I respectfully disagree. If list were that easy and
anyone could do that, how come they are not available for many taxa? How
come we are not even able to answer such a "simple" question like "how many
wasp species are"? [You can change "wasp" for "beetles", "moths" and pretty
much any hyperdiverse taxon that you like]. And how come when one looks
into the many websites, databases and many biodiversity aggregators that
have been mentioned here, the data for the hyperdiverse taxa is either very
incomplete or even worse: misleading? It is not that easy to compile that
info, no matter how smart, skilful or passionate IT people are, and unless
we get the wider taxonomic community involved and committed to get those
master lists, we will continue the same way, doing some progress (like Rich
Pyle and others here are doing) but still missing the mark... And yes, more
money and resources would certainly help, but it would also help to get the
community that so lively discusses here more involved on things like that.
Of course, lists are not magical resources that would solve all problems,
but I think they would help with things like gender agreement (and
misspellings, as someone else said today, and other similar issues).
In the end I am happy to follow what the ICZN decides (hopefully based on
the input of as many colleagues as possible). And so far I have dutifully
followed the gender agreement even though I would prefer not to (in that
way I am a "pseudolepidopterist", at least I can claim that my study group
is the main group of Lep parasitoids! ;-)
But what I think the last few days of discussion here show is that perhaps
we could channel all of those ideas (and enthusiasm!?) to take even bigger
steps... At least I want to end my day today thinking that could be
possible. Once again, thanks to everyone for the shared wisdom.
Cheers,
Jose
--
José L. Fernández-Triana, Ph.D.
Research Scientist, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
Canadian National Collection of Insects (CNC)
960 Carling Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0C6, CANADA
Phone: 613-759-1034. Email: jose.fernandez at agr.gc.ca
Alternative email: cnc.braconidae at gmail.com
On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 9:15 PM Michael Heads via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> I couldn't resist looking up 'glochidiatusum': 'The species epithet
> refers to the shape of epandrium, which is spheroid in dorsal view'.
> Ludicrous name and mad etymology, but published in the European Journal of
> Taxonomy!
>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 12:28 PM Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> > Well-meaning attempts to conform to gender agreement have given us this
> > recent addition to the Lexicon: Cryptochetum glochidiatusum. Scream all
> > you want, this is reality and is the future with the current rules. Is
> > this neuter? How would you even fix this? I don't think it can be
> fixed?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On 7/4/2023 5:24 PM, Scott Thomson wrote:
> > >
> > > ***External Sender***
> > >
> > > Thanks Michael a perfect example of my point re computers, computers
> > > cannot "feel" the correct answer that requires what we call common
> > > sense, and computers are idiots when it comes to common sense.
> > >
> > > I almost finished my last post on the other thread with this:
> > >
> > > If this were easy it would have been done and we would not be having
> > > this conversation.
> > >
> > > Cheers Scott
> > >
> > > Em ter., 4 de jul. de 2023 às 20:03, Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom
> > > <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> escreveu:
> > >
> > > I have renamed this so that I am not replying to any specific
> > > person's
> > > comment and cut off the tail.
> > >
> > > Regarding gender agreement. For those that think that learning a
> few
> > > simple rules and then just knowing what the answer is, let's look
> > > at a
> > > real world example we can all appreciate - from Beer. Everyone who
> > > has
> > > taken a few introduction to Spanish classes, or who grew up with
> > > Spanish
> > > speakers, or has a working grasp of Spanish that works for
> > > travel, but
> > > did not get a degree in Spanish Language, knows the simple rules of
> > > gender agreement in Spanish. You can follow it because it sounds
> > > right,
> > > and "feels" right.
> > >
> > > However, there is an excellent (my opinion) Mexican beer named
> Negra
> > > Modelo. Clearly, Modelo ends in an "o" and is masculine, so the
> > > modifier must conform and also end in an "o." So this name is
> wrong,
> > > and many many people say "Negro Modelo" or "Negra Modela" as a
> > > reflexive
> > > conformity to gender agreement (similar to correcting a species
> name
> > > with the "wrong" ending). Why would a company screw this up like
> > > this?
> > >
> > > Well, in an example just like what happens with scientific names,
> > > deeper
> > > knowledge of a language is needed than having a basic working
> > > knowledge
> > > of a language in order to get the details correct. "Modelo,"
> meaning
> > > "style or fashion" is a Greek borrow-word taken into Spanish as a
> > > direct
> > > form. In Greek that last "o" is feminine (in this case), so it
> > > retains
> > > its feminine form in Spanish and modifiers conform by ending in an
> > > "a."
> > > How the ### are you supposed to just know that? Same happens with
> > > "El
> > > Drama."
> > >
> > > Gender agreement that is absolutely and always correct is not
> > > something
> > > perfectly easy to a non-fluent speaker - of any language.
> > >
> > > Keep it or get rid of it, but don't call it easy and simple.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > --
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >
> > > Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> > >
> > > NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
> > >
> > > US Post Office Address:
> > > Montana Entomology Collection
> > > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > > PO Box 173145
> > > Montana State University
> > > Bozeman, MT 59717
> > > USA
> > >
> > > UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> > > Montana Entomology Collection
> > > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > > 1911 West Lincoln Street
> > > Montana State University
> > > Bozeman, MT 59718
> > > USA
> > >
> > >
> > > (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> > > (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> > > mivie at montana.edu
> > >
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> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring
> > > alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Scott Thomson
> > >
> > > Centro de Estudos dos Quelônios da Amazônia - CEQUA
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> > > <
> >
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> > >
> > > Skype: Faendalimas
> > > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> > >
> > --
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> > Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> >
> > NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
> >
> > US Post Office Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > PO Box 173145
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59717
> > USA
> >
> > UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > 1911 West Lincoln Street
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59718
> > USA
> >
> >
> > (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> > (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> > mivie at montana.edu
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf4d47de6396f4245b8e108db7cff0df1%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241207126188256%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=u5MfViitgHUvZTWI7MKb8sZzttIZ3s3BWrYIjkL4lKI%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017.
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf4d47de6396f4245b8e108db7cff0df1%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241207126188256%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aiaMF87OPCbv35t4Lvp0VlEoN3eUCpvGRMoS7uFJKjY%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
> Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf4d47de6396f4245b8e108db7cff0df1%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241207126188256%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VZqv1UG%2B%2Fnd2l7nLrv%2BH1Gr5P5%2BNgE6lOmaBcTNTKKk%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
> Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf4d47de6396f4245b8e108db7cff0df1%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241207126188256%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZmoaPz1Y7OFCweRv%2FWYoltGf%2FKvx%2FlQ3xLs9szA2Nzo%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf4d47de6396f4245b8e108db7cff0df1%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241207126188256%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DmOhl24xRZOB1GNdZYVjgf9S2UnyvqbVPRgErIGcsH0%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf4d47de6396f4245b8e108db7cff0df1%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241207126188256%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zo0FoUaFwsgMaFeN1AGMq%2BeQ2eh2%2BiICsmzEd%2BD7tBQ%3D&reserved=0
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>
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