Taxacom: Taxacom Digest, Vol 192, Issue 15
John Grehan
calabar.john at gmail.com
Wed Apr 20 13:56:22 CDT 2022
2022
I couldn't agree more with the summary by Les. I get the impression that
relatively few have the time allocation to work intensively on taxonomy. It
was not until retirement that I could do anything much at all, even though
I was working in a museum setting. While employed, the other demands of my
positions meant, for example, that a fairly simple revision of about 7
species took 20 years to complete!
Ironically I now have the time, but not the resources. So taxonomic work
progresses, but quite slowly.
John Grehan
On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 2:40 PM Les Watling via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> If you want to speed up taxonomy and have it done well, well then, maybe
> consider PAYING people to do taxonomic work. Most of the taxonomists I know
> are laboring away in university settings, teaching courses, trying to get
> some grant money, doing committee work. I am just about finished my nearly
> 50 year university career and I have had only a few grants to actually
> describe some species. One of those was one of the first PEET grants from
> the US NSF. Otherwise, what paid the bills and employed my grad students
> was ecological work. In the end I have managed to describe a bunch of
> crustacean and deep-sea octocoral species, and a few worms and sponges,
> etc., and do some major revisionary work, but most of that was not paid for
> by anyone but me.
>
> I remember one meeting long ago where a bunch of ecologists were
> complaining that the species they worked with were STILL undescribed and
> wondered why we taxonomists didn't get the descriptions done. My response:
> learn the essentials of taxonomy for the group you are messing with in your
> ecological work and describe the species yourself. That would also speed up
> the taxonomic impediment. Ecologists for some reason divorce the taxonomic
> from the ecological.
>
> So that's my rant. Nothing new there but I think occasionally needs saying.
>
> Les
>
>
> Les Watling
> Professor, School of Life Sciences
> 216 Edmondson Hall
> University of Hawaii at Manoa
> Honolulu, HI 96822
> Ph. 808-956-8621
> Cell: 808-772-9563
> e-mail: watling at hawaii.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 7:00 AM <taxacom-request at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> > Daily News from the Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > When responding to a message, please do not copy the entire digest into
> > your reply.
> > ____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
> > Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Scott Thomson)
> > 2. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
> > Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Robert Zuparko)
> > 3. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
> > Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Fernandez, Jose)
> > 4. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
> > Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Michael Heads)
> > 5. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
> > Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Scott Thomson)
> > 6. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
> > Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (David Campbell)
> > 7. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
> > Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Richard Zander)
> > 8. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
> > Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Buz Wilson)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 14:27:57 -0300
> > From: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > To: Evangelos Vlachos <evlacho at gmail.com>
> > Cc: ICZN list <iczn-list at afriherp.org>, taxacom
> > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
> > data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > CADRwqwjMemMkL8ibi8XGnoSjzBWzyFzfoUgvnqWTxEGmb+enzQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > thanks for the paper, it's a very interesting and timely analysis of the
> > issue.
> >
> > Cheers Scott
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 1:36 PM Evangelos Vlachos <evlacho at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fcla.12489&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z3KjQOGxbPmBfxn93M6PlDXNEdTO5zJVmLL0V%2Fx11mY%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > Dear All, in both ICZN list and Taxacom, the COI barcode practice
> > > by Sharkey et al. to name hundreds of species has raised many
> > discussions,
> > > from both a nomenclatural and taxonomic point of view.
> > >
> > > So I thought to share with the members of the list the Meier et al.'s
> > > paper, published in Open Access in the latest issue of Cladistics.
> > >
> > > They add more arguments (mostly taxonomic, I think) to the discussion.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Evan Vlachos
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > iczn-list mailing list
> > > iczn-list at afriherp.org
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.afriherp.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ficzn-list&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fT9YVFUGGfhXEe7re%2Byazkm5I7rkpdZIeQv89k5u%2BP4%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> >
> > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > Brasil
> >
> >
> >
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> > <
> >
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> > >
> > Skype: Faendalimas
> > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 11:17:21 -0700
> > From: Robert Zuparko <rz at berkeley.edu>
> > To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > Cc: ICZN list <iczn-list at afriherp.org>, taxacom
> > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
> > data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > CAPBiEsEtR7M6ntxEawVRFxc5ybe9g5_tvCGvY8gDErEKHsLcuQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > I was just going to say "Holy guacamole", but Scott expressed it better.
> >
> > -Bob Zuparko
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:24:05 +0000
> > From: "Fernandez, Jose" <jose.fernandez at AGR.GC.CA>
> > To: Robert Zuparko <rz at berkeley.edu>, Scott Thomson
> > <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > Cc: ICZN list <iczn-list at afriherp.org>, taxacom
> > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
> > data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> >
> QB1PR01MB294680A9DD434862E1ECFDF0DEF29 at QB1PR01MB2946.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
> > >
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > That paper has been around for a while, although as an early view online.
> > I cited it in my ZooKeys forum paper about turbotaxonomy (
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzookeys.pensoft.net%2Farticle%2F76720%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IzmBKarV63G6JFjqPRwV8593Vb%2BzQfS3J0JNc1tLAfY%3D&reserved=0
> ),
> > which I mentioned in this list back in February, but no one seemed to be
> > interested in debating the topic further. Hopefully now Meier's paper
> will
> > bring the attention again back to the topic. I found Meier et al. (2022)
> > one of the strongest and soundests arguments so far against use of
> DNA-only
> > taxonomy, while also being very well written and balanced. The thing
> about
> > BINs is a bit scary (from a scientific perspective), although
> > I sincerely hope that is fixable in the near future by BOLD.
> >
> > Regardless, the topic is still relevant and listening to different
> > opinions is important and necessary. We need to speed up the pace of
> > taxonomy, no questions about that; but we also should strive to do it as
> > best as possible. I would welcome respectful debate on that, as I have
> > found myself learning from different ideas on the issue, even when I
> > disagreed with some of them.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jose
> >
> > --
> > Jos? L. Fern?ndez-Triana, Ph.D.
> > Research Scientist, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
> > Canadian National Collection of Insects (CNC)
> > 960 Carling Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0C6, CANADA
> > Phone: 613-759-1034. Email: jose.fernandez at canada.ca
> > Alternative email?: cnc.braconidae at gmail.com
> >
> > Approved disclaimer text, if applicable.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Robert Zuparko
> > via Taxacom
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2022 2:17 PM
> > To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > Cc: ICZN list <iczn-list at afriherp.org>; taxacom <
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data
> > in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> >
> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
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> > ATTENTION: Ce courriel provient de l?ext?rieur de l?organisation. Ne
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> >
> > I was just going to say "Holy guacamole", but Scott expressed it better.
> >
> > -Bob Zuparko
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 08:21:21 +1200
> > From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> > Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
> > data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > CAF_uauAHzEKzMdqcWG6FotWo3jB8UtmXF_ypiv0OZrFgbqLptA at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > The second sentence of Meir et al.: 'This heightened interest has
> > highlighted one more that one of the most important tasks in science is
> > unfinished: the discovery and description of earth's biodiversity'.
> > Biologists always make this mistake, geologists never do. Would anyone
> > write 'mars' or 'jupiter'?
> > more that one of the most important tasks in science is unfinished: the
> > discovery and description of earth?s biodiversity (May, 2011).
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 5:29 AM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > thanks for the paper, it's a very interesting and timely analysis of
> the
> > > issue.
> > >
> > > Cheers Scott
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 1:36 PM Evangelos Vlachos <evlacho at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fcla.12489&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z3KjQOGxbPmBfxn93M6PlDXNEdTO5zJVmLL0V%2Fx11mY%3D&reserved=0
> > > >
> > > > Dear All, in both ICZN list and Taxacom, the COI barcode practice
> > > > by Sharkey et al. to name hundreds of species has raised many
> > > discussions,
> > > > from both a nomenclatural and taxonomic point of view.
> > > >
> > > > So I thought to share with the members of the list the Meier et al.'s
> > > > paper, published in Open Access in the latest issue of Cladistics.
> > > >
> > > > They add more arguments (mostly taxonomic, I think) to the
> discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Evan Vlachos
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > iczn-list mailing list
> > > > iczn-list at afriherp.org
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Scott Thomson
> > >
> > > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > > Brasil
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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> > > Lattes: *
> > >
> >
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> > > <
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> > > >
> > > Skype: Faendalimas
> > > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
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> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > >
> >
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> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My books:
> >
> > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> > Raton FL. 2017.
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hVubmB2Qgq1q9oIRt5eikH1%2Bx3b7t9ijWUrA6WQztmk%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> University
> > Press, Cambridge. 2014.
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TFspH6GDXdTsmKhtpMu%2Fs28%2F7v%2FgUd3YDwAP%2FSUUK7g%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> Press,
> > Berkeley. 2012.
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zvfpwwzXYVOeEyQBThBNuqr%2FgqJE0DuIAmbWAmByOPQ%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> > New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mG4XKxUOOQFNnmvLvWOsC9ar25cccALorblHlk8%2FRDQ%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9pUDjoBVjoEdli9WEjWogLnqzxZ5bAJdBT%2FVw1zBJxg%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:05:35 -0300
> > From: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > To: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
> > data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > CADRwqwiRmFbsmBiFRi24pfXVvcCkMR7PXva4LsMZWC1fW75qbQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Well to go a little further...
> >
> > Jose I remember your paper and read it with great interest at the time.
> It
> > is good that the Meier et al paper is now also out fully and not just a
> > preprint.
> >
> > I have long been critical of DNA only approaches, particularly if its
> using
> > the mitochondrial DNA and CO1 is particularly problematic if its the sole
> > gene relied on and this seems to be the case with barcoding. At least in
> > vertebrates this gene and the mitochondria in general is affected by
> > introgression. Species boundaries are unfortunately not as clean as we
> > would hope. I would imagine the same may be true of many invertebrate
> taxa
> > and even plants. Hence I do favor less rapid production approaches.
> >
> > Sure DNA has several advantages, one it requires less specialisation in
> the
> > species in question, it just requires skill in DNA extraction and
> > sequencing, the ability to punch data into an algorithm of some type. The
> > perfect scenario for rapid turnover budgets of Universities. However, on
> > its own what it produces is not useful. It produces a result, but I think
> > taxonomy, if we want it respected as a base science, must produce useful
> > results. By itself in many ways DNA and particularly barcodes, are
> similar
> > to numerical taxonomy, it takes objectivity to the level of the absurd.
> > Biota is not divided into nice discreet equal packets we can call species
> > and even objective methodologies rely on assumptions. In numerical
> taxonomy
> > and I think this applies to barcodes as well the assumption is that all
> > data is equal. But species are not equal.
> >
> > I do accept that in megadiverse groups there is an issue of expediency
> > against the biodiversity crisis. I think to deal with that requires more
> > taxonomists, and more specialisations and to actually turn taxonomy into
> a
> > viable career path that is not done just by the lucky few to score a
> museum
> > position. Many agencies should be encouraged to fund taxonomy and employ
> > taxonomists.
> >
> > Then there is morphology..... that should always be a requirement. But I
> > would make this email very long going into that part of the debate.
> >
> > Cheers Scott
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 5:22 PM Michael Heads via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > The second sentence of Meir et al.: 'This heightened interest has
> > > highlighted one more that one of the most important tasks in science is
> > > unfinished: the discovery and description of earth's biodiversity'.
> > > Biologists always make this mistake, geologists never do. Would anyone
> > > write 'mars' or 'jupiter'?
> > > more that one of the most important tasks in science is unfinished:
> the
> > > discovery and description of earth?s biodiversity (May, 2011).
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 5:29 AM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> > > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > thanks for the paper, it's a very interesting and timely analysis of
> > the
> > > > issue.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers Scott
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 1:36 PM Evangelos Vlachos <evlacho at gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fcla.12489&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z3KjQOGxbPmBfxn93M6PlDXNEdTO5zJVmLL0V%2Fx11mY%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear All, in both ICZN list and Taxacom, the COI barcode practice
> > > > > by Sharkey et al. to name hundreds of species has raised many
> > > > discussions,
> > > > > from both a nomenclatural and taxonomic point of view.
> > > > >
> > > > > So I thought to share with the members of the list the Meier et
> al.'s
> > > > > paper, published in Open Access in the latest issue of Cladistics.
> > > > >
> > > > > They add more arguments (mostly taxonomic, I think) to the
> > discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > Evan Vlachos
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > iczn-list mailing list
> > > > > iczn-list at afriherp.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Scott Thomson
> > > >
> > > > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > > > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > > > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > > > Brasil
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > > ORCID:
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > > Lattes: *
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > > >
> > > > Skype: Faendalimas
> > > > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > > > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > >
> > > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
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> > > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > >
> > > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> > 1987-2022.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> > >
> > > My books:
> > >
> > > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC,
> Boca
> > > Raton FL. 2017.
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hVubmB2Qgq1q9oIRt5eikH1%2Bx3b7t9ijWUrA6WQztmk%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > >
> > > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> > University
> > > Press, Cambridge. 2014.
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TFspH6GDXdTsmKhtpMu%2Fs28%2F7v%2FgUd3YDwAP%2FSUUK7g%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > >
> > > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> > Press,
> > > Berkeley. 2012.
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zvfpwwzXYVOeEyQBThBNuqr%2FgqJE0DuIAmbWAmByOPQ%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > >
> > > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University
> Press,
> > > New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mG4XKxUOOQFNnmvLvWOsC9ar25cccALorblHlk8%2FRDQ%3D&reserved=0
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9pUDjoBVjoEdli9WEjWogLnqzxZ5bAJdBT%2FVw1zBJxg%3D&reserved=0
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > > https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > >
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> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> >
> > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > Brasil
> >
> >
> >
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> > ORCID:
> >
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> > Lattes: *
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lnAFlAuLE1J2JXXv5PyghYEHvzTX0qgm%2FErPnSxPNAM%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zDMX%2FFzQNSq%2Frxn4b40fBep9%2BRPHhubDfTUDb27cf1Y%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > Skype: Faendalimas
> > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:47:36 -0400
> > From: David Campbell <pleuronaia at gmail.com>
> > Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
> > data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > CAN1+Hk-_7LTzvpJ20WFDY3PzA43bHLXwL4MSYSABZPSm_9Kttg at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > At least in
> > > vertebrates this gene and the mitochondria in general is affected by
> > > introgression. Species boundaries are unfortunately not as clean as we
> > > would hope. I would imagine the same may be true of many invertebrate
> > taxa
> > > and even plants.
> >
> >
> > Noting some additional problems: A few vertebrates, lots of plants, and
> > certain invertebrates are allopolyploids, requiring use of nuclear
> > markers. Some taxa have anomalous sequences (e.g.,
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fzsc.12139&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pj8VXqfD0FEzNwdyF8S6IAOrde5IeZ2ulpWYQZKzMpg%3D&reserved=0
> ).
> > Symbionts can be a
> > problem (
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Facademic.oup.com%2Fsysbio%2Farticle%2F58%2F4%2F445%2F1681303&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SSMHJoni4%2FgCFiVDm6K1kpK2i3YfXxoNwbhSHXISkDk%3D&reserved=0
> ),
> > as are
> > misidentifications of reference sequences.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:07:32 +0000
> > From: Richard Zander <Richard.Zander at mobot.org>
> > To: David Campbell <pleuronaia at gmail.com>
> > Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
> > data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> >
> BYAPR15MB3512CC50E66562B28CA3AD3B9AF59 at BYAPR15MB3512.namprd15.prod.outlook.com
> > >
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Molecular analysis has fatal problems.
> >
> > It relies on the assumption that one species has one molecular lineage;
> > there are an average of 3.5 molecular races in the group I study, and
> each
> > can generate new morphospecies on its own, generating molecular paraphyly
> > and polyphyly. No, the extra races don't go away with time.
> >
> > Ever wonder why ecologists tout the 30 samples rule? This is because the
> > bell-shaped curve of a simple distribution contains 95% of variation at
> the
> > inflection where the curve bends outwards (2 sigma), which is 19/20 of
> the
> > variation. How do you ensure that you are sampling the rare variation
> > occurring in 1/20 of the distribution: sample a goodly bit more than 20,
> > say maybe 30 samples. How many samples do molecular people make of their
> > testing? Are the results replicable?
> >
> > For progenitors with multiple descendants, each descendant is paired with
> > a molecular race of the progenitor with exactly the same tracking traits.
> > Where are they in a molecular cladogram? Extinct? Unsampled?
> > Epistemologically cancelled?
> >
> > Cladistics cannot detail ancestors, yet ancestor species can be quite
> > obvious when you polarize morphospecies with an outgroup. New species
> that
> > are proposed based on faulty premises, poor sampling, and lacking an
> > evolutionary context are exercises in futility. Scientists stand on the
> > work of others, and molecular analysis, except for the most egregious
> > problems in taxonomy, is a rickety platform for prediction of
> > evolution-powered changes during the sixth extinction event.
> > ________________________________
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of David Campbell
> > via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2022 6:47 PM
> > Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data
> > in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > At least in
> > > vertebrates this gene and the mitochondria in general is affected by
> > > introgression. Species boundaries are unfortunately not as clean as we
> > > would hope. I would imagine the same may be true of many invertebrate
> > taxa
> > > and even plants.
> >
> >
> > Noting some additional problems: A few vertebrates, lots of plants, and
> > certain invertebrates are allopolyploids, requiring use of nuclear
> > markers. Some taxa have anomalous sequences (e.g.,
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fzsc.12139&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pj8VXqfD0FEzNwdyF8S6IAOrde5IeZ2ulpWYQZKzMpg%3D&reserved=0
> ).
> > Symbionts can be a
> > problem (
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Facademic.oup.com%2Fsysbio%2Farticle%2F58%2F4%2F445%2F1681303&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SSMHJoni4%2FgCFiVDm6K1kpK2i3YfXxoNwbhSHXISkDk%3D&reserved=0
> ),
> > as are
> > misidentifications of reference sequences.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fsJX%2Fh0Ptngh3doArbfpp6P7FYVOVEPrznz9MIQCJrY%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:15:56 -0400
> > From: Buz Wilson <buzwilson at gmail.com>
> > To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
> > data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> > Message-ID: <a0cd7ad3-2daa-ad39-1e4e-b2620458cdf7 at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> >
> > Dear Taxacom readers
> >
> > I generally lurk this list, searching for interesting tidbits to think
> > about. This thread got my attention because I had previously read Meier
> > et al (I get the journal) as I wanted to concur with points made by
> > David Campbell. I was horrified to see that Zookeys, which I assumed
> > would be stronger on morphological systematics and the needs of the
> > ICZN, had published this paper. When I was the scientific editor for a
> > Museum journal, I would have sent similar papers back to the authors
> > without bothering to request referee reports (I did on one occasion). I
> > am not, however, against using molecular data for systematics.
> >
> > I was interested to read David Campbell's <pleuronaia at gmail.com> post on
> > this subject.
> > [abridged]
> > "At least in vertebrates this gene and the mitochondria in general is
> > affected by introgression. Species boundaries are unfortunately not as
> > clean as we would hope. I would imagine the same may be true of many
> > invertebrate taxa and even plants."
> >
> > Introgression certainly occurs in aquatic groundwater-dependent isopod
> > crustaceans from our own data. I studied a flock of 30 species of
> > Phreatoicidean isopods from Australia's northern territory (Kakadu and
> > Arnhemland) and was able to separate them using morphological analysis.
> > We also collected mtDNA from practically all species but I was confused
> > by one of the species showing up as with the same genetics as another
> > species (we completed the molecular analysis before I finished the
> > monograph). This finding was not an accident because we collected data
> > on as many as 5-6 specimens from each putative species. These isopods
> > subsist during the dry season in highly compact populations and
> > sequences for individuals varied only by 0-3 bases (panmixis assumed).
> > The two species are readily identifiable morphologically (I provide a
> > key to the species) but they have identical COI and 16S sequences, which
> > is evidence that their entire mtGenome may also be identical (hopefully
> > someday someone will check this). If you want to see our results, please
> > see our recent monograph: Wilson GDF, Humphrey CL. 2020. The
> > /Eophreatoicus/ Nicholls, 1926 species flock from Kakadu and Arnhem
> > Land, with a description of a new genus of Amphisopidae (Crustacea :
> > Isopoda : Phreatoicidea) Zootaxa 4854: 1-303. Zootaxa made a figure
> > errata but I can provide a revised (unofficial) version if anyone is
> > interested. The earlier molecular analysis: Wilson, G.D.F., Humphrey,
> > C.L., Colgan, D.J., Gray, K.-A. & Johnson, R.N. (2009)
> > Monsoon-influenced speciation patterns in a species flock
> > of/Eophreatoicus/ Nicholls (Isopoda; Crustacea). Molecular Phylogenetics
> > and Evolution, 51, 349?364.
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.ympev.2009.02.001&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PSo1GfVfFglOgJwBpnpN17cyi1zxZ0UKMUq%2FC%2Ft%2FFLs%3D&reserved=0
> .
> >
> > The raw molecular data with updated species names and locations can be
> > found on GenBank.
> >
> > David Campbell again:
> > "Symbionts can be a problem"
> > Symbionts are known in isopods and may be behind the selective advantage
> > shown by particular mitochondria in the /Eophreatoicus/ populations
> > (another thing that I wish someone would check out).
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Buz
> > --
> >
> > George D.F. (Buz) Wilson, Ph.D.
> > Saugatuck Natural History Laboratory, LLC
> > website:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.snhlab.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BHM4CnEdhlDhFu%2BSXP6%2BIEczpmvG7dn2hn7bi6HtWAM%3D&reserved=0
> > publications:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Wilson-12&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cafab0f04dce4472e589d08da22ff8e78%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860778277592626%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nJVVYx4NiGEqnenFK6RUQkwkYrVY2lX%2F29sQTsskMko%3D&reserved=0
> > email:gdfw at SNHLab.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 192, Issue 15
> > ****************************************
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
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