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Taxacom: Taxacom Digest, Vol 192, Issue 15

Les Watling watling at hawaii.edu
Wed Apr 20 13:39:42 CDT 2022 

If you want to speed up taxonomy and have it done well, well then, maybe
consider PAYING people to do taxonomic work. Most of the taxonomists I know
are laboring away in university settings, teaching courses, trying to get
some grant money, doing committee work. I am just about finished my nearly
50 year university career and I have had only a few grants to actually
describe some species. One of those was one of the first PEET grants from
the US NSF. Otherwise, what paid the bills and employed my grad students
was ecological work. In the end I have managed to describe a bunch of
crustacean and deep-sea octocoral species, and a few worms and sponges,
etc., and do some major revisionary work, but most of that was not paid for
by anyone but me.

I remember one meeting long ago where a bunch of ecologists were
complaining that the species they worked with were STILL undescribed and
wondered why we taxonomists didn't get the descriptions done. My response:
learn the essentials of taxonomy for the group you are messing with in your
ecological work and describe the species yourself. That would also speed up
the taxonomic impediment. Ecologists for some reason divorce the taxonomic
from the ecological.

So that's my rant. Nothing new there but I think occasionally needs saying.

Les


Les Watling
Professor, School of Life Sciences
216 Edmondson Hall
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Honolulu, HI 96822
Ph. 808-956-8621
Cell: 808-772-9563
e-mail: watling at hawaii.edu






On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 7:00 AM <taxacom-request at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

> Daily News from the Taxacom Mailing List
>
> When responding to a message, please do not copy the entire digest into
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> ____________________________________
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
>       Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Scott Thomson)
>    2. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
>       Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Robert Zuparko)
>    3. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
>       Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Fernandez, Jose)
>    4. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
>       Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Michael Heads)
>    5. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
>       Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Scott Thomson)
>    6. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
>       Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (David Campbell)
>    7. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
>       Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Richard Zander)
>    8. Re: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data in
>       Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics (Buz Wilson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 14:27:57 -0300
> From: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> To: Evangelos Vlachos <evlacho at gmail.com>
> Cc: ICZN list <iczn-list at afriherp.org>, taxacom
>         <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
>         data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CADRwqwjMemMkL8ibi8XGnoSjzBWzyFzfoUgvnqWTxEGmb+enzQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> thanks for the paper, it's a very interesting and timely analysis of the
> issue.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 1:36 PM Evangelos Vlachos <evlacho at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fcla.12489&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BujQ07AakVFcInfmRrZWFx%2F58hkq5l7%2FlgLyVteCEGA%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Dear All, in both ICZN list and Taxacom, the COI barcode practice
> > by Sharkey et al. to name hundreds of species has raised many
> discussions,
> > from both a nomenclatural and taxonomic point of view.
> >
> > So I thought to share with the members of the list the Meier et al.'s
> > paper, published in Open Access in the latest issue of Cladistics.
> >
> > They add more arguments (mostly taxonomic, I think) to the discussion.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Evan Vlachos
> > _______________________________________________
> > iczn-list mailing list
> > iczn-list at afriherp.org
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.afriherp.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ficzn-list&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Mfvd5TNSxuFFxlHXOANVGVHQw9i%2F7NI5ACJXGsY3KaM%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> Petr?polis, Manaus
> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> Brasil
>
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rKHhSCnSKaRjsLDig3%2BoJkVUtKUoKt8JZRs4LhdhL1I%3D&reserved=0
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> Lattes: *
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> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dE3747TkeS0bBdkln2Fgnbom6FVvHQyiv7tGiKxREkg%3D&reserved=0
> >
> Skype: Faendalimas
> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 11:17:21 -0700
> From: Robert Zuparko <rz at berkeley.edu>
> To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> Cc: ICZN list <iczn-list at afriherp.org>, taxacom
>         <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
>         data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAPBiEsEtR7M6ntxEawVRFxc5ybe9g5_tvCGvY8gDErEKHsLcuQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I was just going to say "Holy guacamole", but Scott expressed it better.
>
> -Bob Zuparko
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:24:05 +0000
> From: "Fernandez, Jose" <jose.fernandez at AGR.GC.CA>
> To: Robert Zuparko <rz at berkeley.edu>, Scott Thomson
>         <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> Cc: ICZN list <iczn-list at afriherp.org>, taxacom
>         <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
>         data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> Message-ID:
>         <
> QB1PR01MB294680A9DD434862E1ECFDF0DEF29 at QB1PR01MB2946.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> That paper has been around for a while, although as an early view online.
> I cited it in my ZooKeys forum paper about turbotaxonomy (
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzookeys.pensoft.net%2Farticle%2F76720%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=OKy9zWwtTzXBUF%2FG7VbPI6WRTLMtYh9uoWgpCYaXd7k%3D&reserved=0),
> which I mentioned in this list back in February, but no one seemed to be
> interested in debating the topic further. Hopefully now Meier's paper will
> bring the attention again back to the topic. I found Meier et al. (2022)
> one of the strongest and soundests arguments so far against use of DNA-only
> taxonomy, while also being very well written and balanced. The thing about
> BINs is a bit scary (from a scientific perspective), although
>   I sincerely hope that is fixable in the near future by BOLD.
>
> Regardless, the topic is still relevant and listening to different
> opinions is important and necessary. We need to speed up the pace of
> taxonomy, no questions about that; but we also should strive to do it as
> best as possible. I would welcome respectful debate on that, as I have
> found myself learning from different ideas on the issue, even when I
> disagreed with some of them.
>
> Cheers,
> Jose
>
> --
> Jos? L. Fern?ndez-Triana, Ph.D.
> Research Scientist, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
> Canadian National Collection of Insects (CNC)
> 960 Carling Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0C6, CANADA
> Phone: 613-759-1034. Email: jose.fernandez at canada.ca
> Alternative email?: cnc.braconidae at gmail.com
>
> Approved disclaimer text, if applicable.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Robert Zuparko
> via Taxacom
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2022 2:17 PM
> To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> Cc: ICZN list <iczn-list at afriherp.org>; taxacom <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data
> in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
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> I was just going to say "Holy guacamole", but Scott expressed it better.
>
> -Bob Zuparko
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 08:21:21 +1200
> From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
>         data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAF_uauAHzEKzMdqcWG6FotWo3jB8UtmXF_ypiv0OZrFgbqLptA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>    The second sentence of Meir et al.: 'This heightened interest has
> highlighted one more that one of the most important tasks in science is
> unfinished: the discovery and description of earth's biodiversity'.
> Biologists always make this mistake, geologists never do. Would anyone
> write 'mars' or 'jupiter'?
>  more that one of the most important tasks in science is unfinished: the
> discovery and description of earth?s biodiversity (May, 2011).
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 5:29 AM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> > thanks for the paper, it's a very interesting and timely analysis of the
> > issue.
> >
> > Cheers Scott
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 1:36 PM Evangelos Vlachos <evlacho at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fcla.12489&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BujQ07AakVFcInfmRrZWFx%2F58hkq5l7%2FlgLyVteCEGA%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > Dear All, in both ICZN list and Taxacom, the COI barcode practice
> > > by Sharkey et al. to name hundreds of species has raised many
> > discussions,
> > > from both a nomenclatural and taxonomic point of view.
> > >
> > > So I thought to share with the members of the list the Meier et al.'s
> > > paper, published in Open Access in the latest issue of Cladistics.
> > >
> > > They add more arguments (mostly taxonomic, I think) to the discussion.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Evan Vlachos
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > iczn-list mailing list
> > > iczn-list at afriherp.org
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.afriherp.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ficzn-list&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Mfvd5TNSxuFFxlHXOANVGVHQw9i%2F7NI5ACJXGsY3KaM%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> >
> > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > Brasil
> >
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rKHhSCnSKaRjsLDig3%2BoJkVUtKUoKt8JZRs4LhdhL1I%3D&reserved=0
> > ORCID:
> >
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> > Lattes: *
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aIsM4Q%2Flh8reP7sw9UiBx9%2Faaauwvk4TQQhcMVUCG24%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dE3747TkeS0bBdkln2Fgnbom6FVvHQyiv7tGiKxREkg%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > Skype: Faendalimas
> > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
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> >
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017.
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CswKABiIOuwVftVW3XvGzywFwpRgyG3A%2FEoABqdWOtE%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
> Press, Cambridge. 2014.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YnqHxjcZbHT0QD1TynRwGhMIpHv%2FzFGMSMgtMH%2Fy50s%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
> Berkeley. 2012.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=C0AnmN6qHktRjjKKvYx1eRO5DaXPlMcJg%2BeKFjqmsDk%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3RYP4ETduroKNtD8DtP2%2B3HiSn3lc8ufanUZj0miC8E%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JXtBuIXs%2FS7OL8iAAHzxxMuLhWmUqDlgwcZxjKySvVw%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:05:35 -0300
> From: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> To: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
>         data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CADRwqwiRmFbsmBiFRi24pfXVvcCkMR7PXva4LsMZWC1fW75qbQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Well to go a little further...
>
> Jose I remember your paper and read it with great interest at the time. It
> is good that the Meier et al paper is now also out fully and not just a
> preprint.
>
> I have long been critical of DNA only approaches, particularly if its using
> the mitochondrial DNA and CO1 is particularly problematic if its the sole
> gene relied on and this seems to be the case with barcoding. At least in
> vertebrates this gene and the mitochondria in general is affected by
> introgression. Species boundaries are unfortunately not as clean as we
> would hope. I would imagine the same may be true of many invertebrate taxa
> and even plants. Hence I do favor less rapid production approaches.
>
> Sure DNA has several advantages, one it requires less specialisation in the
> species in question, it just requires skill in DNA extraction and
> sequencing, the ability to punch data into an algorithm of some type. The
> perfect scenario for rapid turnover budgets of Universities. However, on
> its own what it produces is not useful. It produces a result, but I think
> taxonomy, if we want it respected as a base science, must produce useful
> results. By itself in many ways DNA and particularly barcodes, are similar
> to numerical taxonomy, it takes objectivity to the level of the absurd.
> Biota is not divided into nice discreet equal packets we can call species
> and even objective methodologies rely on assumptions. In numerical taxonomy
> and I think this applies to barcodes as well the assumption is that all
> data is equal. But species are not equal.
>
> I do accept that in megadiverse groups there is an issue of expediency
> against the biodiversity crisis. I think to deal with that requires more
> taxonomists, and more specialisations and to actually turn taxonomy into a
> viable career path that is not done just by the lucky few to score a museum
> position. Many agencies should be encouraged to fund taxonomy and employ
> taxonomists.
>
> Then there is morphology..... that should always be a requirement. But I
> would make this email very long going into that part of the debate.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 5:22 PM Michael Heads via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> >    The second sentence of Meir et al.: 'This heightened interest has
> > highlighted one more that one of the most important tasks in science is
> > unfinished: the discovery and description of earth's biodiversity'.
> > Biologists always make this mistake, geologists never do. Would anyone
> > write 'mars' or 'jupiter'?
> >  more that one of the most important tasks in science is unfinished: the
> > discovery and description of earth?s biodiversity (May, 2011).
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 5:29 AM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > thanks for the paper, it's a very interesting and timely analysis of
> the
> > > issue.
> > >
> > > Cheers Scott
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 1:36 PM Evangelos Vlachos <evlacho at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fcla.12489&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BujQ07AakVFcInfmRrZWFx%2F58hkq5l7%2FlgLyVteCEGA%3D&reserved=0
> > > >
> > > > Dear All, in both ICZN list and Taxacom, the COI barcode practice
> > > > by Sharkey et al. to name hundreds of species has raised many
> > > discussions,
> > > > from both a nomenclatural and taxonomic point of view.
> > > >
> > > > So I thought to share with the members of the list the Meier et al.'s
> > > > paper, published in Open Access in the latest issue of Cladistics.
> > > >
> > > > They add more arguments (mostly taxonomic, I think) to the
> discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Evan Vlachos
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > iczn-list mailing list
> > > > iczn-list at afriherp.org
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.afriherp.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ficzn-list&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Mfvd5TNSxuFFxlHXOANVGVHQw9i%2F7NI5ACJXGsY3KaM%3D&reserved=0
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Scott Thomson
> > >
> > > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > > Brasil
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rKHhSCnSKaRjsLDig3%2BoJkVUtKUoKt8JZRs4LhdhL1I%3D&reserved=0
> > > ORCID:
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sEF3lvKIE4XdoAxXbFh9r%2BbyWe4hqog2zpHkoodox8Y%3D&reserved=0
> > > Lattes: *
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aIsM4Q%2Flh8reP7sw9UiBx9%2Faaauwvk4TQQhcMVUCG24%3D&reserved=0
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dE3747TkeS0bBdkln2Fgnbom6FVvHQyiv7tGiKxREkg%3D&reserved=0
> > > >
> > > Skype: Faendalimas
> > > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > > https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z%2BFUzVnqpXCTibXNN5wd2Wv%2B2ulJR8cRQ%2FuTCK7HiHc%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My books:
> >
> > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> > Raton FL. 2017.
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CswKABiIOuwVftVW3XvGzywFwpRgyG3A%2FEoABqdWOtE%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> University
> > Press, Cambridge. 2014.
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YnqHxjcZbHT0QD1TynRwGhMIpHv%2FzFGMSMgtMH%2Fy50s%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> Press,
> > Berkeley. 2012.
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=C0AnmN6qHktRjjKKvYx1eRO5DaXPlMcJg%2BeKFjqmsDk%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> > New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3RYP4ETduroKNtD8DtP2%2B3HiSn3lc8ufanUZj0miC8E%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JXtBuIXs%2FS7OL8iAAHzxxMuLhWmUqDlgwcZxjKySvVw%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z%2BFUzVnqpXCTibXNN5wd2Wv%2B2ulJR8cRQ%2FuTCK7HiHc%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> Petr?polis, Manaus
> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> Brasil
>
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rKHhSCnSKaRjsLDig3%2BoJkVUtKUoKt8JZRs4LhdhL1I%3D&reserved=0
> ORCID:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sEF3lvKIE4XdoAxXbFh9r%2BbyWe4hqog2zpHkoodox8Y%3D&reserved=0
> Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aIsM4Q%2Flh8reP7sw9UiBx9%2Faaauwvk4TQQhcMVUCG24%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dE3747TkeS0bBdkln2Fgnbom6FVvHQyiv7tGiKxREkg%3D&reserved=0
> >
> Skype: Faendalimas
> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:47:36 -0400
> From: David Campbell <pleuronaia at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
>         data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAN1+Hk-_7LTzvpJ20WFDY3PzA43bHLXwL4MSYSABZPSm_9Kttg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> >
> >
> > At least in
> > vertebrates this gene and the mitochondria in general is affected by
> > introgression. Species boundaries are unfortunately not as clean as we
> > would hope. I would imagine the same may be true of many invertebrate
> taxa
> > and even plants.
>
>
> Noting some additional problems:  A few vertebrates, lots of plants, and
> certain invertebrates are allopolyploids, requiring use of nuclear
> markers.  Some taxa have anomalous sequences (e.g.,
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fzsc.12139&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9U8EBfmgVGl%2FSHk6i34UsthY8VlmBrbaW0H5HAeF5zk%3D&reserved=0).
> Symbionts can be a
> problem (
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Facademic.oup.com%2Fsysbio%2Farticle%2F58%2F4%2F445%2F1681303&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sFUjq02NCGBbXccFWkjt8hFxaiVwa8%2FzJsvUWrZ5zow%3D&reserved=0),
> as are
> misidentifications of reference sequences.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:07:32 +0000
> From: Richard Zander <Richard.Zander at mobot.org>
> To: David Campbell <pleuronaia at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
>         data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> Message-ID:
>         <
> BYAPR15MB3512CC50E66562B28CA3AD3B9AF59 at BYAPR15MB3512.namprd15.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Molecular analysis has fatal problems.
>
> It relies on the assumption that one species has one molecular lineage;
> there are an average of 3.5 molecular races in the group I study, and each
> can generate new morphospecies on its own, generating molecular paraphyly
> and polyphyly. No, the extra races don't go away with time.
>
> Ever wonder why ecologists tout the 30 samples rule? This is because the
> bell-shaped curve of a simple distribution contains 95% of variation at the
> inflection where the curve bends outwards (2 sigma), which is 19/20 of the
> variation. How do you ensure that you are sampling the rare variation
> occurring in 1/20 of the distribution:  sample a goodly bit more than 20,
> say maybe 30 samples. How many samples do molecular people make of their
> testing? Are the results replicable?
>
> For progenitors with multiple descendants, each descendant is paired with
> a molecular race of the progenitor with exactly the same tracking traits.
> Where are they in a molecular cladogram? Extinct? Unsampled?
> Epistemologically cancelled?
>
> Cladistics cannot detail ancestors, yet ancestor species can be quite
> obvious when you polarize morphospecies with an outgroup. New species that
> are proposed based on faulty premises, poor sampling, and lacking an
> evolutionary context are exercises in futility. Scientists stand on the
> work of others, and molecular analysis, except for the most egregious
> problems in taxonomy, is a rickety platform for prediction of
> evolution-powered changes during the sixth extinction event.
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of David Campbell
> via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2022 6:47 PM
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the data
> in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
>
> >
> >
> > At least in
> > vertebrates this gene and the mitochondria in general is affected by
> > introgression. Species boundaries are unfortunately not as clean as we
> > would hope. I would imagine the same may be true of many invertebrate
> taxa
> > and even plants.
>
>
> Noting some additional problems:  A few vertebrates, lots of plants, and
> certain invertebrates are allopolyploids, requiring use of nuclear
> markers.  Some taxa have anomalous sequences (e.g.,
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fzsc.12139&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9U8EBfmgVGl%2FSHk6i34UsthY8VlmBrbaW0H5HAeF5zk%3D&reserved=0).
> Symbionts can be a
> problem (
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Facademic.oup.com%2Fsysbio%2Farticle%2F58%2F4%2F445%2F1681303&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sFUjq02NCGBbXccFWkjt8hFxaiVwa8%2FzJsvUWrZ5zow%3D&reserved=0),
> as are
> misidentifications of reference sequences.
> _______________________________________________
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:15:56 -0400
> From: Buz Wilson <buzwilson at gmail.com>
> To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: [iczn-list] Meier et al.'s re-analysis of the
>         data in Sharkey et?al.?s (2021) in Cladistics
> Message-ID: <a0cd7ad3-2daa-ad39-1e4e-b2620458cdf7 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Dear Taxacom readers
>
> I generally lurk this list, searching for interesting tidbits to think
> about. This thread got my attention because I had previously read Meier
> et al (I get the journal) as I wanted to concur with points made by
> David Campbell. I was horrified to see that Zookeys, which I assumed
> would be stronger on morphological systematics and the needs of the
> ICZN, had published this paper. When I was the scientific editor for a
> Museum journal, I would have sent similar papers back to the authors
> without bothering to request referee reports (I did on one occasion). I
> am not, however, against using molecular data for systematics.
>
> I was interested to read David Campbell's <pleuronaia at gmail.com> post on
> this subject.
> [abridged]
> "At least in vertebrates this gene and the mitochondria in general is
> affected by introgression. Species boundaries are unfortunately not as
> clean as we would hope. I would imagine the same may be true of many
> invertebrate taxa and even plants."
>
> Introgression certainly occurs in aquatic groundwater-dependent isopod
> crustaceans from our own data. I studied a flock of 30 species of
> Phreatoicidean isopods from Australia's northern territory (Kakadu and
> Arnhemland) and was able to separate them using morphological analysis.
> We also collected mtDNA from practically all species but I was confused
> by one of the species showing up as with the same genetics as another
> species (we completed the molecular analysis before I finished the
> monograph). This finding was not an accident because we collected data
> on as many as 5-6 specimens from each putative species. These isopods
> subsist during the dry season in highly compact populations and
> sequences for individuals varied only by 0-3 bases (panmixis assumed).
> The two species are readily identifiable morphologically (I provide a
> key to the species) but they have identical COI and 16S sequences, which
> is evidence that their entire mtGenome may also be identical (hopefully
> someday someone will check this). If you want to see our results, please
> see our recent monograph: Wilson GDF, Humphrey CL. 2020. The
> /Eophreatoicus/ Nicholls, 1926 species flock from Kakadu and Arnhem
> Land, with a description of a new genus of Amphisopidae (Crustacea :
> Isopoda : Phreatoicidea) Zootaxa 4854: 1-303. Zootaxa made a figure
> errata but I can provide a revised (unofficial) version if anyone is
> interested. The earlier molecular analysis: Wilson, G.D.F., Humphrey,
> C.L., Colgan, D.J., Gray, K.-A. & Johnson, R.N. (2009)
> Monsoon-influenced speciation patterns in a species flock
> of/Eophreatoicus/ Nicholls (Isopoda; Crustacea). Molecular Phylogenetics
> and Evolution, 51, 349?364.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.ympev.2009.02.001&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=S25n2DIVD6EpNiqsjJ983RTbXBKWo3sz7UZPPRsBuSc%3D&reserved=0.
>
> The raw molecular data with updated species names and locations can be
> found on GenBank.
>
> David Campbell again:
> "Symbionts can be a problem"
> Symbionts are known in isopods and may be behind the selective advantage
> shown by particular mitochondria in the /Eophreatoicus/ populations
> (another thing that I wish someone would check out).
>
> Best wishes
>
> Buz
> --
>
> George D.F. (Buz) Wilson, Ph.D.
> Saugatuck Natural History Laboratory, LLC
> website:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.snhlab.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BMbCnu5fjWNGUAvGbbhfC9XL4iOkAp1smzzKw2ww27g%3D&reserved=0
> publications:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Wilson-12&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca79d1cfc3bd34647a0e908da22fd336d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637860768156000827%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lKLlSjuOHgmGalzYlE1BtUruKt2WjlDIxjJBQ0KPsOE%3D&reserved=0
> email:gdfw at SNHLab.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 192, Issue 15
> ****************************************
>

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