Taxacom: iguana interview

Tue May 6 10:58:28 CDT 2025

This has been done in a number of different ways, including incorporating fossil calibrations and using secondary calibrations from previous studies. The point is, there are overwhelming data showing that much of the Greater Antillean flora is quite young and must have arisen through long distance dispersal before radiating within the islands. And many of these Greater Antillean radiations have remained endemic specifically to those islands.

Cheers,

Lucas C. Majure, Ph.D.
Associate Curator
Keeper, University of Florida Herbarium (FLAS)
Florida Museum of Natural History
University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611
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From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 6, 2025 at 11:48 AM
To: Majure,Lucas C <lmajure at floridamuseum.ufl.edu>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: iguana interview
[External Email]
How did you calibrate the phylogenies?

On Tue, May 6, 2025 at 11:46?AM Majure,Lucas C <lmajure at floridamuseum.ufl.edu<mailto:lmajure at floridamuseum.ufl.edu>> wrote:
Hi John,

This assertion is based on time calibration of phylogenies that we and others have published for these groups. The vast majority of plant radiations in the Greater Antilles are mostly mid-Miocene and/or oftentimes much younger. Yes, this also assumes that we are retrieving close-enough divergence time estimates to make these assertions,  but many of these radiations correspond quite well to what we know regarding mid-Miocene mountain building, as well as the expansion of tropical dry forest during the Pleistocene.

Best,

Lucas C. Majure, Ph.D.
Associate Curator
Keeper, University of Florida Herbarium (FLAS)
Florida Museum of Natural History
University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611
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From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com<mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, May 6, 2025 at 10:30 AM
To: Majure,Lucas C <lmajure at floridamuseum.ufl.edu<mailto:lmajure at floridamuseum.ufl.edu>>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: iguana interview
[External Email]
Lucas,

Thanks for the feedback. Not sure who you are referring to about the Cyclura distribution being 'odd' - was not me. Agreed that the pattern is found in other taxa, but your statement " certain groups of Melastomataceae and so on, are geologically too young for geological processes of island development to have underlain this distribution." This assertion is based on what?

Cheers, John

On Tue, May 6, 2025 at 7:36?AM Majure,Lucas C <lmajure at floridamuseum.ufl.edu<mailto:lmajure at floridamuseum.ufl.edu>> wrote:
Cyclura seems to be following a pattern that is incredibly common in plants, with many genera, or species groups restricted to the Greater Antilles. This has often led to dispersal among the islands of the Greater Antilles but with no longer distance dispersal outside of the islands into adjacent islands of the Caribbean or continental America. Also, essentially all of these groups of plants, such as Leptocereus (Cactaceae), certain groups of Melastomataceae and so on, are geologically too young for geological processes of island development to have underlain this distribution. So, I don?t find the Cyclura pattern odd at all. These Cyclura also happen to eat some of the plants with this same distribution, such as Leptocereus.

Cheers,

Lucas C. Majure, Ph.D.
Associate Curator
Keeper, University of Florida Herbarium (FLAS)
Florida Museum of Natural History
University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611
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From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu>> on behalf of John Grehan via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>>
Date: Tuesday, May 6, 2025 at 12:20 AM
To:
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: iguana interview
[External Email]

All this discussion about dispersal got me to take a closer look at Cyclura
- last time was over two decades ago. Interesting (to me) is that of the 11
species I found listed, only two are perhaps sympatric on Hispaniola.Others
are allopatric - barring any marginal overlap (but need to yet read over a
paper that may have other information). So, with all this imagined rafting,
species land up on different places, and yet not on the mainland of Central
and South America or North America or lesser Antilles. But makes sense in a
tectonic context of ancestral Cyclura range being fragmented and
reorganized with movement of the northern edge of the Caribbean plate.
Happy to send my draft map to anyone interested. But if anyone knows of a
comprehensive published source of distributions for all species that would
be of interest to read. My current map is mostly from listings of islands
occupied.

Cheers, John Grehan

On Mon, May 5, 2025 at 12:46?AM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com<mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com>> wrote:

> Geoff  - Got a bit lost with your reasoning. I have no problem with 'long
> distance' dispersal or short distance dispersal. After all, taxa that have
> a near global distribution had to disperse over a 'long distance."
> Dispersal certainly explains species having a geographic range. That's an
> ecological reality. But the Fiji iguana argument is that a unique one off
> chance dispersal event led to the origin of iguanas in Fiji. However one
> might imagine this as a possibility (just as I might imagine that moa
> ancestor swam across the Tasman Sea), imagining is not science. Science is
> about evidence and there is simply no evidence that the origin of the Fiji
> species are derived from rafting across the Pacific from America. Cheers,
> John
>
> On Mon, May 5, 2025 at 12:00?AM Geoff Read <gread at actrix.gen.nz<mailto:gread at actrix.gen.nz>> wrote:
>
>> Yes. Explained won't wash if you don't accept long-distance rafting is
>> possible.
>>
>> However (this is trivial but it's one basis of John's argument technique
>> - change the wording of the discussion to keywords within his belief
>> system) ...
>>
>> (Lead author) Iguanas "reaching small islands surrounded by deep-ocean
>> environment" (implied initial colony-founding event) and (John Grehan)
>> Iguanas "establish(ing) multi island metapopulations" (implied that
>> movement from one population to another is and has been occurring
>> regularly).
>>
>> Which wording most clearly describes the likely situation?
>>
>> Geoff
>> --
>> Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
>> Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
>> gread at actrix.gen.nz<mailto:gread at actrix.gen.nz>
>>
>> ---- Original Message ----
>> *From*: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com<mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com>>
>> *To*: "Geoff Read" <gread at actrix.gen.nz<mailto:gread at actrix.gen.nz>>
>> *Cc*: "taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
>> *Sent*: Mon, May 5, 2025, 12:33 PM
>> *Subject*: Re: Taxacom: iguana interview
>>
>> " explained how iguana lineages from South America dispersed so easily
>> throughout the Caribbean & The Bahamas, with some reaching small islands
>> surrounded by deep-ocean environment"
>>
>> It does not. It just shows that iguanas in the Caribbean can establish
>> multi island metapopulations. If to the contrary, interested in what
>> purports to be evidence.
>>
>> On Sun, May 4, 2025 at 7:42?PM Geoff Read via Taxacom <
>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>> Missed that the article was actually from five years ago in 2020, but
>>> the lead author has just reposted it on social media for its relevance to
>>> the Fiji rafting paper as that paper "explained how iguana lineages from
>>> South America dispersed so easily throughout the Caribbean & The Bahamas,
>>> with some reaching small islands surrounded by deep-ocean environments."
>>>
>>> --
>>> Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
>>> Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
>>> gread at actrix.gen.nz<mailto:gread at actrix.gen.nz>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >---- Original Message ----
>>> >From: Geoff Read via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>>
>>> >To: "John Grehan" <calabar.john at gmail.com<mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com>>
>>> >Cc: "taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
>>> >Sent: Mon, May 5, 2025, 11:20 AM
>>> >Subject: Re: Taxacom: iguana interview
>>> >
>>> >For further recent news on iguana dispersal - a Bahamas trace fossil
>>> placed as an iguana nest burrow:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Fwe-discovered-a-115-000-year-old-iguana-nest-fossil-in-the-bahamas-151270&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C914facae5d58412080c108dd8cb6dba3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821439186869419%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=g%2FZKT%2BzrWGzvKOzPZFwaKuM03f5Uxm6YrIGqzITWNN4%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Fwe-discovered-a-115-000-year-old-iguana-nest-fossil-in-the-bahamas-151270&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C914facae5d58412080c108dd8cb6dba3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821439186882607%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rJC2BA8ND5r%2BKaZNKSByTPcKxvCdhDs6GZzbV4H3ry0%3D&reserved=0>
>>> >https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0242935&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C914facae5d58412080c108dd8cb6dba3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821439186895297%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3J3iKxllgkCa3uFT8mdx3EhNZnoHCVwCXt4OWZHaAKM%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0242935&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C914facae5d58412080c108dd8cb6dba3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821439186911712%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kjSLKsGmqMq9HSYUdWFa9BGY%2Bdf7DIQiibQyy7HxRfw%3D&reserved=0>
>>> >
>>> >"This fossil iguana burrow also establishes a minimum time for iguanas
>>> on San Salvador during the Middle-Late Pleistocene, which can be applied to
>>> better understanding the biogeographic dispersal of Cyclura throughout The
>>> Bahamas during the Pleistocene and Holocene"
>>> >
>>> >They discuss alternative explanations. Always possible with trace
>>> fossils.
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
>>> >Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
>>> >gread at actrix.gen.nz<mailto:gread at actrix.gen.nz>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>---- Original Message ----
>>> >>From: John Grehan via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>>
>>> >>To: "taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
>>> >>Sent: Mon, May 5, 2025, 5:47 AM
>>> >>Subject: Re: Taxacom: igunana interview
>>> >>
>>> >>ps -  Note the interviewers reference to it sounding like a Disney
>>> Movie -
>>> >>hint of cognitive dissonance that on one hand the interviewer has to
>>> >>swallow this stuff given the 'authority' of the source while on the
>>> other
>>> >>some deeper common sense says it sounds pretty absurd.
>>> >>
>>> >>On Sun, May 4, 2025 at 1:05?PM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com<mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Link below. Chance dispersal believers will love it. The content is
>>> all
>>> >>> about belief, not scientific methodology at all.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Ancient Iguanas Floated 5,000 Miles Across The Pacific
>>> >>> <
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencefriday.com%2Fsegments%2Figuanas-cross-the-pacific-to-fiji%2F%23segment-transcript&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C914facae5d58412080c108dd8cb6dba3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821439186925805%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=idjQr%2Bhi7YKou%2BMd%2BYm3%2BTG42Gm%2BGoIWDpSWJ5ODSnU%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencefriday.com%2Fsegments%2Figuanas-cross-the-pacific-to-fiji%2F%23segment-transcript&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C914facae5d58412080c108dd8cb6dba3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821439186939671%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rVwbSSWwC6AFuiR%2BsHkfnMAC6rVV6dO2eqT52NPmVX0%3D&reserved=0>
>>> >
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C914facae5d58412080c108dd8cb6dba3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821439186953190%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PTQjreIxJIM9Nz5NT6G3Y7FVzDG9mlueKm08FSle08M%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C914facae5d58412080c108dd8cb6dba3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821439186966753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6SNMN3cuOzOQ3MTCm3OIWcf80k3gBnJr14EOHWQVoe0%3D&reserved=0> (use the 'visit archived web
>>> site'
>>> >
>>> >
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>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for 38 years, 1987-2025.
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>>
>>
>
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> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>

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Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for 38 years, 1987-2025.

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
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https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C914facae5d58412080c108dd8cb6dba3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821439187113657%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dJt8F8PpyXNsOHCyFFvnFG1rHZDsE26Td2rDe9A46zI%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site' link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.