Taxacom: iguana interview

Tue May 6 10:47:36 CDT 2025

How did you calibrate the phylogenies?

On Tue, May 6, 2025 at 11:46?AM Majure,Lucas C <
lmajure at floridamuseum.ufl.edu> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
>
>
> This assertion is based on time calibration of phylogenies that we and
> others have published for these groups. The vast majority of plant
> radiations in the Greater Antilles are mostly mid-Miocene and/or oftentimes
> much younger. Yes, this also assumes that we are retrieving close-enough
> divergence time estimates to make these assertions,  but many of these
> radiations correspond quite well to what we know regarding mid-Miocene
> mountain building, as well as the expansion of tropical dry forest during
> the Pleistocene.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Lucas C. Majure, Ph.D.
>
> Associate Curator
>
> Keeper, University of Florida Herbarium (FLAS)
>
> Florida Museum of Natural History
>
> University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, May 6, 2025 at 10:30 AM
> *To: *Majure,Lucas C <lmajure at floridamuseum.ufl.edu>
> *Cc: *taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> *Subject: *Re: Taxacom: iguana interview
>
> *[External Email]*
>
> Lucas,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the feedback. Not sure who you are referring to about the
> Cyclura distribution being 'odd' - was not me. Agreed that the pattern is
> found in other taxa, but your statement " certain groups of Melastomataceae
> and so on, are geologically too young for geological processes of island
> development to have underlain this distribution." This assertion is based
> on what?
>
>
>
> Cheers, John
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 6, 2025 at 7:36?AM Majure,Lucas C <
> lmajure at floridamuseum.ufl.edu> wrote:
>
> *Cyclura* seems to be following a pattern that is incredibly common in
> plants, with many genera, or species groups restricted to the Greater
> Antilles. This has often led to dispersal among the islands of the Greater
> Antilles but with no longer distance dispersal outside of the islands into
> adjacent islands of the Caribbean or continental America. Also, essentially
> all of these groups of plants, such as *Leptocereus* (Cactaceae), certain
> groups of Melastomataceae and so on, are geologically too young for
> geological processes of island development to have underlain this
> distribution. So, I don?t find the *Cyclura* pattern odd at all. These
> *Cyclura* also happen to eat some of the plants with this same
> distribution, such as *Leptocereus*.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Lucas C. Majure, Ph.D.
>
> Associate Curator
>
> Keeper, University of Florida Herbarium (FLAS)
>
> Florida Museum of Natural History
>
> University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.majurelab.org%2F&data%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C139078795e844d3cfe1008dd8cb568c4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821432979412991%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x2GDbNwrV%2Bpou%2F5GFWA7i7%2F6NSKPsUmlULqkUaDJfqo%3D&reserved=0
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>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of John Grehan
> via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> *Date: *Tuesday, May 6, 2025 at 12:20 AM
> *To: *
> *Cc: *taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> *Subject: *Re: Taxacom: iguana interview
>
> [External Email]
>
> All this discussion about dispersal got me to take a closer look at Cyclura
> - last time was over two decades ago. Interesting (to me) is that of the 11
> species I found listed, only two are perhaps sympatric on Hispaniola.Others
> are allopatric - barring any marginal overlap (but need to yet read over a
> paper that may have other information). So, with all this imagined rafting,
> species land up on different places, and yet not on the mainland of Central
> and South America or North America or lesser Antilles. But makes sense in a
> tectonic context of ancestral Cyclura range being fragmented and
> reorganized with movement of the northern edge of the Caribbean plate.
> Happy to send my draft map to anyone interested. But if anyone knows of a
> comprehensive published source of distributions for all species that would
> be of interest to read. My current map is mostly from listings of islands
> occupied.
>
> Cheers, John Grehan
>
> On Mon, May 5, 2025 at 12:46?AM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Geoff  - Got a bit lost with your reasoning. I have no problem with 'long
> > distance' dispersal or short distance dispersal. After all, taxa that
> have
> > a near global distribution had to disperse over a 'long distance."
> > Dispersal certainly explains species having a geographic range. That's an
> > ecological reality. But the Fiji iguana argument is that a unique one off
> > chance dispersal event led to the origin of iguanas in Fiji. However one
> > might imagine this as a possibility (just as I might imagine that moa
> > ancestor swam across the Tasman Sea), imagining is not science. Science
> is
> > about evidence and there is simply no evidence that the origin of the
> Fiji
> > species are derived from rafting across the Pacific from America. Cheers,
> > John
> >
> > On Mon, May 5, 2025 at 12:00?AM Geoff Read <gread at actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes. Explained won't wash if you don't accept long-distance rafting is
> >> possible.
> >>
> >> However (this is trivial but it's one basis of John's argument technique
> >> - change the wording of the discussion to keywords within his belief
> >> system) ...
> >>
> >> (Lead author) Iguanas "reaching small islands surrounded by deep-ocean
> >> environment" (implied initial colony-founding event) and (John Grehan)
> >> Iguanas "establish(ing) multi island metapopulations" (implied that
> >> movement from one population to another is and has been occurring
> >> regularly).
> >>
> >> Which wording most clearly describes the likely situation?
> >>
> >> Geoff
> >> --
> >> Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
> >> Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
> >> gread at actrix.gen.nz
> >>
> >> ---- Original Message ----
> >> *From*: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> >> *To*: "Geoff Read" <gread at actrix.gen.nz>
> >> *Cc*: "taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >> *Sent*: Mon, May 5, 2025, 12:33 PM
> >> *Subject*: Re: Taxacom: iguana interview
> >>
> >> " explained how iguana lineages from South America dispersed so easily
> >> throughout the Caribbean & The Bahamas, with some reaching small islands
> >> surrounded by deep-ocean environment"
> >>
> >> It does not. It just shows that iguanas in the Caribbean can establish
> >> multi island metapopulations. If to the contrary, interested in what
> >> purports to be evidence.
> >>
> >> On Sun, May 4, 2025 at 7:42?PM Geoff Read via Taxacom <
> >> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Missed that the article was actually from five years ago in 2020, but
> >>> the lead author has just reposted it on social media for its relevance
> to
> >>> the Fiji rafting paper as that paper "explained how iguana lineages
> from
> >>> South America dispersed so easily throughout the Caribbean & The
> Bahamas,
> >>> with some reaching small islands surrounded by deep-ocean
> environments."
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
> >>> Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
> >>> gread at actrix.gen.nz
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> >---- Original Message ----
> >>> >From: Geoff Read via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> >>> >To: "John Grehan" <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> >>> >Cc: "taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >>> >Sent: Mon, May 5, 2025, 11:20 AM
> >>> >Subject: Re: Taxacom: iguana interview
> >>> >
> >>> >For further recent news on iguana dispersal - a Bahamas trace fossil
> >>> placed as an iguana nest burrow:
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Fwe-discovered-a-115-000-year-old-iguana-nest-fossil-in-the-bahamas-151270&data%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C139078795e844d3cfe1008dd8cb568c4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821432979439081%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=OYJbqgzOATqRkizdDPFsH%2BRaRpIz2NDYbd2DiWQDfLQ%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Fwe-discovered-a-115-000-year-old-iguana-nest-fossil-in-the-bahamas-151270&data%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C139078795e844d3cfe1008dd8cb568c4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821432979452029%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=OCtPjI4luAKWWtxcusWQutFPYLJVRVWno39Wg1zlO48%3D&reserved=0>
> >>> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0242935&data%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C139078795e844d3cfe1008dd8cb568c4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821432979469940%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=stoqZXKCoOBDmKWg95ZpwoBUt40JREY2lT1dhCziQbw%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0242935&data%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C139078795e844d3cfe1008dd8cb568c4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821432979486482%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FJh4ryjNJEPqlzUT8QOOaOBUCqTZDEMtlM%2FTN9d0oIM%3D&reserved=0>
> >>> >
> >>> >"This fossil iguana burrow also establishes a minimum time for iguanas
> >>> on San Salvador during the Middle-Late Pleistocene, which can be
> applied to
> >>> better understanding the biogeographic dispersal of Cyclura throughout
> The
> >>> Bahamas during the Pleistocene and Holocene"
> >>> >
> >>> >They discuss alternative explanations. Always possible with trace
> >>> fossils.
> >>> >
> >>> >--
> >>> >Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
> >>> >Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
> >>> >gread at actrix.gen.nz
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >>---- Original Message ----
> >>> >>From: John Grehan via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> >>> >>To: "taxacom" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >>> >>Sent: Mon, May 5, 2025, 5:47 AM
> >>> >>Subject: Re: Taxacom: igunana interview
> >>> >>
> >>> >>ps -  Note the interviewers reference to it sounding like a Disney
> >>> Movie -
> >>> >>hint of cognitive dissonance that on one hand the interviewer has to
> >>> >>swallow this stuff given the 'authority' of the source while on the
> >>> other
> >>> >>some deeper common sense says it sounds pretty absurd.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>On Sun, May 4, 2025 at 1:05?PM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Link below. Chance dispersal believers will love it. The content is
> >>> all
> >>> >>> about belief, not scientific methodology at all.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Ancient Iguanas Floated 5,000 Miles Across The Pacific
> >>> >>> <
> >>>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencefriday.com%2Fsegments%2Figuanas-cross-the-pacific-to-fiji%2F%23segment-transcript&data%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C139078795e844d3cfe1008dd8cb568c4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638821432979499873%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rT4CdMUvaiYICO1YzGO6D1r36x6gZCGBXwmjrn9t%2BLw%3D&reserved=0
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> >>> >
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> --
> >>> >>>
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> >>> site'
> >>> >
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> >> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
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