Taxacom: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug Yanega many proposals to this list)

[Thomas Pape]

As president of the ICZN I follow the discussion on Latin / gender agreement / single official list of taxa with keen interest. 
It is important for the Commission to be able to gauge the concerns of the taxonomic (and broader biological) community, and I cannot express this better than quoting W.D.L. Ride, who concluded the Introduction to the current version of the zoological Code with:

"Zoologists generally, and the Commission in particular, will go on refining the wording of the Code to further reduce ambiguity and to make good deficiencies in its treatment of products of the past and present (and, as far as they can be foreseen, of the future). Both science itself and the social and technical systems within which scientists work are constantly changing, and the Code must continue to evolve to provide for these changes. Zoologists may remain confident that it will do so."

Traditions have cultural values, also in nomenclature, but they are difficult to quantify, and it is difficult to hold these values up against what we may ‘owe’ the next generations. If an international naming system for scientific names was to be designed today, it is doubtful that Latin grammar would be involved, and it is unlikely that a system would be designed so that species-group names could have variable endings depending on changes in generic classification. As mentioned in the Introduction to the current Code, a proposal was considered to deem species-group names to have invariable spellings irrespective of the gender of their generic name. However, the ways that were proposed for achieving unchanging spellings were all considered to have drawbacks, and the proposal was dropped. History plays its part, and the pros and cons of traditions are often personal issues. The Commission will weigh its decisions carefully and in full consideration of both the past, the present and the future, and the current debate is important for bringing perspectives and nuances.

Thomas Pape


-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of George Beccaloni via Taxacom
Sent: 4. juli 2023 18:27
To: alberto ballerio <philharmostes at yahoo.it>
Cc: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug Yanega many proposals to this list)

Hi Frank & Alberto,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. No doubt nothing will change and gender agreement will continue to frustrate people and waste their time for evermore. What it boils down to is that a group of fuddy-duddy traditionalists like it because it is a tradition. Humans have many failings.

Cheers,

George
****************************************************************************
*Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
*Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*

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****************************************************************************


On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 at 17:15, alberto ballerio <philharmostes at yahoo.it>
wrote:

> I guess that there are also some "very intelligent people" also among 
> the supporters of gender agreement, therefore the "intelligence" 
> argument is useless for the purposes of this debate.
>
> Probably the reason you will never find a "scientific reason" is that 
> nomenclature is not science, it's a body of rules, i.e., a legal text, 
> hence it does not follow a scientific method, but it's a compromise 
> between logics and the contradictions of human nature, tradition and 
> the need to find some coeherence in it. Gender agreement is one of 
> those rules and as such it fits perfectly the system you criticize.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Alberto
>
> Il martedì 4 luglio 2023 alle ore 17:44:43 CEST, George Beccaloni via 
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> ha scritto:
>
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> You didn't answer the question - i.e. what good scientific reasons are 
> there for such a system, which some very intelligent people who have 
> contributed to this discussion clearly find problematic. Just because 
> you don't isn't an adequate argument. It costs time and effort to 
> implement and maintain, so a cost-benefit analysis should be done. I 
> believe the costs far outweigh the benefits.
>
> Cheers,
>
> George
>
> **********************************************************************
> ******
> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
>
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>
> **********************************************************************
> ******
>
>
> On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 at 16:31, Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org> wrote:
>
> > George,
> > You repeatedly neglected or didn't understand or brushed off the 
> > argument that with a very basic knowledge of Latin grammar you do 
> > not have to memorize the endings of adjectival specific names, 
> > because you just know them when you see the genus. This is true in 
> > most cases. This is a HUGE time saver. Not sure why you don't get it or don't accept it.
> > And "Lepidopterists have never used it [gender agreement]" is wrong. 
> > The correct phrase is: Most lepidopterists have never used it.
> > All the best, No one (Frank)
> >
> >
> > Dr. Frank-Thorsten Krell
> >
> > Senior Curator of Entomology, Editor-in-Chief Commissioner and 
> > Councillor, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature 
> > Department of Zoology Denver Museum of Nature & Science
> > 2001 Colorado Blvd
> > Denver, Colorado 80205-5798, U.S.A.
> > Frank.krell at dmns.org
> > Phone 303.370.8244
> > Fax 303.331.6492
> > https://ww/
> > w.dmns.org%2Fscience%2Fzoology%2Fstaff%2Ffrank-krell%2F&data=05%7C01
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> >
> > Bugs: They’re bigger, they’re better, they’re buggier than ever! 
> > It’s all about precision flight, swarm intelligence and mind control 
> > in the world
> of
> > “Bugs," the exhibition. Marvel at their adaptive genius and see if 
> > you
> can
> > match their brilliance.
> >
> >
> > Bugs: Son más grandes, mejores y más increíbles que nunca. En la 
> > exhibición "Bugs" todo gira en torno al vuelo de precisión, la
> inteligencia
> > en grupo y el control mental. ¡Descubre lo genios que son!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of George 
> > Beccaloni via Taxacom
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2023 9:15 AM
> > To: Jose Fernandez-Triana <cnc.braconidae at gmail.com>
> > Cc: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug 
> > Yanega many proposals to this list)
> >
> > What a monumental waste of time and effort that would be - at least 
> > for the purposes of gender agreement! No one has presented a good 
> > scientific argument in defence of gender agreement, so I hold by 
> > what I said
> earlier -
> > it is a useless waste of time! Lepidopterists have never used it, 
> > and
> they
> > are probably a lot happier for it. Just use the basionyms - that 
> > would result in a much less confusing and more stable system.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > George
> >
> >
> **********************************************************************
> ******
> > *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
> > *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
> >
> > Wallace Correspondence Project: 
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> >
> **********************************************************************
> ******
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 at 15:54, Jose Fernandez-Triana via Taxacom < 
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > > [Sorry for the long email that follows]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What a long exchange of ideas over the past couple of weeks or so!
> > > Even though at times it may look repetitive or tiring, I think 
> > > this exchange has been mostly valuable, as it is indeed important 
> > > to hear other criteria and see other perspectives (we have seen 
> > > comments coming from different sectors and degrees of 
> > > specialization). I think these exchanges are one of the main useful things of Taxacom.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > One of the main components of this discussion has been the 
> > > proposal of having “master lists” of taxa. I copy below my 
> > > signature the latest email from Doug about that -but, to be fair, 
> > > he has been proposing that approach for a long time (at least 2019 
> > > as far as I can remember, probably longer than that). And he has 
> > > mentioned that several times in this Taxacom list. I have to say 
> > > that I fully agree with Doug’s proposal, and have at times 
> > > wondered why there is not more support for that idea here. 
> > > Instead, the discussion usually steers away towards other topics 
> > > and his proposal gets once and again “forgotten” among the 
> > > plethora of emails and discussions going into many tangents…
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I truly believe that such list (or lists) are indeed possible and 
> > > would probably be the best way to deal with the many problems that 
> > > we have been discussing here lately. What I think has been 
> > > overlooked, or at least not discussed with more detail is how to generate such lists.
> > > Usually what I see here is the work from informatics or databasing 
> > > experts, trying to obtain and curate such information from many 
> > > sources, and I also see the efforts (wonderful! Do not get me 
> > > wrong) of isolated persons spending a considerable amount of their 
> > > time (mostly for free and out of love for what they do) gathering 
> > > such data
> > and preparing such lists on their own.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But there has never been a concerted effort (at least that I am 
> > > aware of, but perhaps I am wrong!) to discuss how such list(s) 
> > > could be generated from bottom to top, so to speak, i.e., 
> > > generated by the community instead of done by the few brave “IT 
> > > knights” that are trying to do it now. Why do not we try to engage 
> > > the wider taxonomic community to work together on that? And 
> > > “reward” them by way of publications where such lists are 
> > > initially presented, so that everyone that participates “gains” 
> > > something (instead of just appearing
> > to be just contributing her/his info “for free”
> > > to some IT wizard that would generate the list, as it is usually 
> > > the
> > case)?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There are no real limitations to such an approach, if there would 
> > > be a will to do it. For example, scientific societies devoted to 
> > > specific taxa could decide to support more and advance such 
> > > efforts. [I am going to use Hymenoptera here to use myself as a 
> > > Guinea pig in the following exercise (I am the current president of the Hym. Society)].
> > > So, let’s say that the International Society of Hymenopterists 
> > > (ISH) decides to publish lists of genera (and species, because a 
> > > concerted effort needs not to be limited only to genera gender 
> > > agreement, it can also be broadened to include many other things 
> > > such as synonyms, species lists, etc.). Like all of the hyper 
> > > diverse insect orders, we do not really know how many species are 
> > > already described (let alone how many undescribed… but that is another topic, so I digress there).
> > > And we do not have lists of synonyms, gender of genera, and so on 
> > > and so forth for many Hymenoptera groups. But what if ISH members 
> > > decide to work together towards that goal? The work can be spread 
> > > by families, or any other, smaller grouping, such that work can be 
> > > manageable and papers can be produced as groups are completed. 
> > > Such publications can later be used by all of the databasers and 
> > > IT wizards, but the initial list gets credited to the taxonomists 
> > > that
> > worked preparing, checking and analyzing those lists. One only needs 
> > to identify potential “project leads”
> > > for specific taxa (be it family X or even a large genus Y) and 
> > > have as many people interested with that taxa getting involved in 
> > > the work needed to prepare such lists (authorship of the papers 
> > > would be determined by the individual contribution of each 
> > > author). Taxa that are “orphan” (i.e., have no current  experts to 
> > > work on that, or the current experts are not interested, would 
> > > remain undone, until the time comes when someone would be willing 
> > > to work on that. But at least a good amount of taxa could be done 
> > > in the meantime. [One different problem is groups where there are 
> > > different experts with competing views and, unfortunately, 
> > > sometimes contradictory or strongly in disagreement… But, from 
> > > what I have seen, that tends to be more common in vertebrates than 
> > > in larger groups such as invertebrates (although no group is exempt from human disagreements and miseries, of course!
> > > In any case, I will not touch in this email about how to solve 
> > > those potentially “difficult groups” to deal with when there are 
> > > competing or opposed experts (this could be discussed in a 
> > > different email, if
> > there is any interest in doing that)].
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A few years ago I worked on a project like that, with a single 
> > > subfamily of Braconidae (around 3,000 described species). The work 
> > > involved a) one undergrad student, b) one technician, c) one 
> > > Ichneumonidae researcher, d) two Braconidae researchers, with the 
> > > main expertise on that taxon. At the end everyone got “rewarded” 
> > > (perhaps the better phrase would be “her/his work towards that 
> > > list was properly recognized”) and the paper, published in 2020 
> > > and over 1,000 pages long, has become the standard for names and 
> > > other things related to that subfamily (including the first time 
> > > the gender for all genera of that group where clearly and 
> > > explicitly stated, and over
> > > 300 new combinations were provided, etc.; see the link here:
> > > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C7ab50578cc3e40e2439a08db7cc8d631%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638240974262516016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pQdDqCgZm0%2F3pmhM1j2av%2B56%2FM8OkrlN6OgJt4dQ29Q%3D&reserved=0
> > > zookeys.pensoft.net%2Farticle%2F39128%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctpape%40sn
> > > m.ku.dk%7C1df10315a5ae40893f0308db7caba10b%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898
> > > c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C638240848830134663%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZDIh6YJb4sL%2FgwwkfEACs3xJ89StS1bzHfc%2B2fEVRck%3D&reserved=0). [For what is worth, Doug helped me A LOT to correct many of the gender problems we encountered during that work, that is why I know he has been pushing for these efforts for a long time].
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There is no limitation to continue doing that for other 
> > > Hymenoptera taxa that are still pending or any other group. And, 
> > > needless to say, many other lists have been generated, both before 
> > > and after my example, and many of them are better than mine! Thus, 
> > > I do not pretend to have invented the wheel here, I only point to 
> > > an example of collaborative work done bottom to top and being able 
> > > to deliver a list that was then usable for the wider community - 
> > > as it has been discussed
> > here for the past few weeks.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Perhaps we could think about this approach, because then things 
> > > would be more manageable and both the taxonomic and wider 
> > > scientific community would accomplish more. We could indeed have 
> > > our cake and eat it, as long as we could agree on some minimum 
> > > standards and organization of the work to be done…
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And I will stop here, thanks to anyone that was patient enough to 
> > > read up to this point!
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Jose
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > José L. Fernández-Triana, Ph.D.
> > > Research Scientist, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Canadian 
> > > National Collection of Insects (CNC)
> > > 960 Carling Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0C6, CANADA
> > > Phone: 613-759-1034. Email: jose.fernandez at agr.gc.ca Alternative
> > > email: cnc.braconidae at gmail.com
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> > > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C7ab50578cc3e40e2439a08db7cc8d631%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638240974262516016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pQdDqCgZm0%2F3pmhM1j2av%2B56%2FM8OkrlN6OgJt4dQ29Q%3D&reserved=0
> > > taxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C1df1031
> > > 5a5ae40893f0308db7caba10b%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7
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> > > data=QjJJggIeWfC0cU4AkT55XPHEkivfA5IMxm9cFPyU8cU%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring 
> > > alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu For 
> > list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://li/
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> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
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> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > https://ta/
> > xacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C1df10315a5a
> > e40893f0308db7caba10b%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C6
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> > gIeWfC0cU4AkT55XPHEkivfA5IMxm9cFPyU8cU%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration 
> > for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu For 
> list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://list/
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> You can reach the person managing the list at: 
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://taxa/
> com.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7C1df10315a5ae408
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> AkT55XPHEkivfA5IMxm9cFPyU8cU%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration 
> for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>
_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C7ab50578cc3e40e2439a08db7cc8d631%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638240974262516016%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1b0LMsDZxJHO7rxrKLb%2BxvkvkE%2FZX%2Fqr%2F3HCOPTYv3o%3D&reserved=0

Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.