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Taxacom: Latin

Stephen Thorpe stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Tue Jul 4 02:13:54 CDT 2023 

 So, Valéry, does the botanical code allow English adjectives, treated as if they were Latin? Could you name a plant Aus redleaf?
    On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 07:08:37 pm NZST, Valery MALECOT via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:  
 
 Dear colleagues

I assume that Annemarie was refering to Appendix B General recommandation 6 : "The scientific names of genus- or species-group taxa should be printed in a type-face (font) different from that used in the text; such names are usually printed in italics, which should not be used for names of higher taxa", while according to ICZN Art 11.3 " a name may be a word in or derived from Latin, Greek or any other language (even one with no alphabet), or be formed from such a word. It may be an arbitrary combination of letters providing this is formed to be used as a word."

>From a french botanical view and after reading the various exchanges, there seems to be some mis-conceptions about what means Latin in the Codes. In the botanical Code it is written (Principle V) "Scientific names of taxonomic groups are treated as Latin regardless of their derivation", which means that words used in scientific names belongs to Latin language, whatever their construction/etymology/origins, and follows Latin grammar (particularly gender agreement if of adjectival form). But the sames words, if used outside a scientific name may not follow Latin grammar. However, This treatment as Latin, implies also a distinct typographic treatement in the publications, the use of italics to tell appart these foreign language words from the remaining of the text.

Sincerely yours
Valéry
----- Mail original -----
De: "Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom" <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
À: "Annemarie OHLER" <annemarie.ohler at mnhn.fr>
Cc: "taxacom" <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Envoyé: Mardi 4 Juillet 2023 08:54:15
Objet: Re: Taxacom: Latin

So Annemarie, what is the relevance of your link?
    On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 06:32:46 pm NZST, Annemarie OHLER <annemarie.ohler at mnhn.fr> wrote:  
 
 See: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iczn.org%2Fthe-code%2Fthe-code-online%2F%3Farticle%3D5&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C74371a66fe614e62922808db7c5e3a83%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638240516375014755%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2yt88%2FuXdMAbNuBb4ATTiwKyUAKTMCBv0DhWlnYW%2Bp8%3D&reserved=0

----- Mail original -----
De: "Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom" <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
À: taxacom at lists.ku.edu, "Glenn Shea" <glenn.shea at sydney.edu.au>
Envoyé: Mardi 4 Juillet 2023 08:26:20
Objet: Re: Taxacom: Latin

It seems that there may be a problem with the current code, in that it may not explicitly require adjectival names to be Latin or latinised classical Greek, but seems to allow any language, including English. This could be problematic! For one thing, if English isn't latinised, then there would seem to be no reason to use italics. I am having difficulty finding anything in the Code which requires the use of italics. If scientific names can be simply English, then all sorts of nonsense is possible, like: 
Antwithabighead andlonglegs
Stephen
    On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 04:17:37 pm NZST, Glenn Shea via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:  
 
 I'm not sure I see anything in the Code that precludes use of simple English for names. Sure, use of the names of people as nouns in apposition is recommended against, due to the potential confusion with authorship, but where does it say it is not possible to use simple English terms? It seems to be only a widely accepted convention. We've got New Guinea Tok Pisin names being created, from a language with English roots (in herpetology, the species Carlia ailanpalai, and the genus Palaia, and we came close (nomen nudum due to the untimely death of the author and a manuscript that went through after his death) to having Liklikpalaia, all based on Tok Pisin lizard, with variously island (ailan) and small (liklik) being added), so I don't see much of a step to having "blackhead" or "redwinged" (or even "thicc"!) being used as specific epithets, which would avoid any need for gender agreement. Not sure I support it, but I can't see the Code preventing it.

But if we're at the stage of having taxonomists not knowing Latin (I can understand that very few taxonomists have an training in Ancient Greek), yet with Latin names (or Latinised/transliterated Greek names) being preferred by the Code, presumably modern taxonomists are having to go to Latin dictionaries (either hard copy or online) to come up with the vast majority of names being coined annually. Those same sources will tell you whether the name is a noun or adjective. Many of the hard copy Latin dictionaries come with a short Latin grammar at the front. So not sure I see that there is any great step involved in completing the process in Latin for adjectival names to have gender agreement, either for those taxonomists creating new names, or for those taxonomists who need to change generic combinations. The main pity is that there is no requirement in the Code for an etymology for the name to be provided, including such a statement.

And for those who argue that suffixes are not important, I remind you of the unfortunate situation where the two endemic frogs on Fiji bear the somewhat confusing names Cornufer (or Platymantis) vitianus and C. (or P.) vitiensis.

Regards,
Glenn

Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 21:28:44 +0000 (UTC)
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz<mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>>
To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com<mailto:scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>>
Cc: Taxacom Mailinglist <taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>>, Raymond Hoser The
        Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au<mailto:viper007 at live.com.au>>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Latin
Message-ID: <2142282058.1577847.1688333324329 at mail.yahoo.com<mailto:2142282058.1577847.1688333324329 at mail.yahoo.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Scott, nobody said it was the rewuired language for nomenclature. I said that the system is based on Latin or latinised Greek, which is true. There are caveats, of course. Names can be based on non Latin or Greek nouns, but not adjectives. For example, if there was a place called Bighead, then a species epithet could be bigheadensis. Maybe it could be used as a noun in apposition, to get the species epithet bighead, but this would not be recommended. However, if a species has a big head, then you can't use the species epithet bighead, you must use something like megacephala (or megacephalum or megacephalus, depending on the gender of the combined genus epithet).Stephen
    On Monday, 3 July 2023 at 02:16:56 am NZST, Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com<mailto:scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>> wrote:

I do not think Latin or latinised Greek is the required language of the Code for nomenclature. What I think is more being implied is that we are to use the Latin alphabet for all names thus avoiding letters such as the Portuguese ? and the many others in various languages. There are rules of name formation which apply when you use a greek or latin word but there is no insistence that you use Latin or Greek words. There are many names and over an extended period that are not Greek or Latin derivatives. Chitra is a 19th century Turtle genus it is from Hindi. Names are to be a combination of letters that is pronounceable and in the latin alphabet, that is the major requirement.
Cheers Scott


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