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Taxacom: Latin

Stephen Thorpe stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Sun Jul 2 04:02:43 CDT 2023 

 Well, by and large, I mean. The genus name Abba, for example, is not Latin or Greek, Mama Mia! However, the system as a whole is still based on Latin or latinised classical Greek. At any rate, the Latin content is slowly slipping away, or maybe not that slowly! The choice is between trying to stop that slippage, or accommodating it by adapting the Code to actual practice. Neither option is wrong, per se.
Stephen
    On Sunday, 2 July 2023 at 08:56:37 pm NZST, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 

'Names are still based on Latin or latinised classical Greek'.
I don't think that's right - e.g. names such as Pakau (a new fern).
On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 8:05 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

 No, that is a straw man response. Priority still holds for heterotypic synonyms. Names are still based on Latin or latinised classical Greek. Stability is however a myth, so why cling on to something that doesn't exist? A certain degree of stability still holds, just not absolute stability.
Stephen
    On Sunday, 2 July 2023 at 08:01:59 pm NZST, lynn <lynn at afriherp.org> wrote:  

 So we can just abandon the three original principles, priority, stability and the use of Latin as the language of zoological nomenclature. 

It seems that there are some already doing this,  so is there any point in having a Code that that the Commission can’t enforce and zoologists can just pick and choose which parts to follow?

Lynn

> On 2 Jul 2023, at 04.35, Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> 
>  Ray,You do know, don't you, that as soon as they start publishing LANS for reptiles, they can then invalidate all your names, wholesale, in a perfectly Code compliant way, not even requiring any changes to the current Code.Stephen 
>    On Sunday, 2 July 2023, 01:43:47 pm NZST, Raymond Hoser The Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au> wrote:  
> 
> Richard, and others, 
> I read the article linked below and saw some of the proponents including the notorious Thiele.
> To me it seems like a combination pf Code wrecker Kaiser's so-called taxon filter and Thiele's ongoing attempts for his cohort to be the gate-keeper of all scientific names (mainly his own cohort's more recently coined names over those correct ICZN names).
> I see this as a slippery slope in their publicly stated aim to destroy the ICZN and the code.
> 
> A better solution to current problems ongoing will be to make sure Code 5, removes any possible ambiguities, refining registrationof naming systems (e.g. Zoobank) to include all new names published anywhere and with a registration system in line with trademarks (that is, it is checked for compliance with the rules, before being allowed to pre-register or register), so as to remove all the creative arguments claiming "oh that was not published under the code", and saving everyone a pile of time being wasted.
> .... and ensuring that the ICZN more forcefully force compliance with the naming rules, whilst maintaining rights of taxonomic freedom.
> All the bestRaymond Hoser
> 
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of Richard Pyle via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, 2 July 2023 5:52 AM
> To: 'George Beccaloni' <g.beccaloni at gmail.com>; 'Dochterland' <dochterland at telenet.be>
> Cc: 'Taxacom Mailinglist' <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Latin I think such an article would be very valuable -- both in terms of properly framing the issue in the context of future editions of all Codes; but also so that whenever this issue comes up again in the future on Taxacom (or wherever), a simple link could be provided to the (open access!) publication.
> 
> However, in order to be legitimate, the strongest and most knowledgeable proponents on ALL sides (note: not just "both" sides, because there are more than two) need to be co-authors, and will need to collaborate.  This sort of thing has happened before in our community (see: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Fhow-a-scientific-spat-over-how-to-name-species-turned-into-a-big-plus-for-nature-138887&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749331703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=8px5a8g65P%2BwH6zDFUGo2rQOehKowowH7CqLb7XV4hE%3D&reserved=0), and I would say with an enormous degree of success.
> 
> Y'all know who you are, and you ought to touch-base with each other off-list to figure out how to proceed on this.
> 
> Aloha,
> Rich
> 
> Richard L. Pyle, PhD
> Senior Curator of Ichthyology | Director of XCoRE
> Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum
> 1525 Bernice Street, Honolulu, HI 96817-2704
> Office: (808) 848-4115;  Fax: (808) 847-8252
> eMail: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> BishopMuseum.org
> Our Mission: Bishop Museum inspires our community and visitors through the exploration and celebration of the extraordinary history, culture, and environment of Hawaiʻi and the Pacific.
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of George
>> Beccaloni via Taxacom
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 11:09 AM
>> To: Dochterland <dochterland at telenet.be>
>> Cc: Taxacom Mailinglist <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
>> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Latin
>> 
>> Dear Jan,
>> 
>> That is an excellent idea. However, I have no idea whether such an article has
>> been done in the past, and even if one has, new and important points may have
>> been raised which are absent from it. I would volunteer to write one (perhaps
>> with others who are interested to be have input for and
>> against) but am too busy for the foreseeable future to do so. Hopefully
>> someone else may take it forward.
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> George
>> ****************************************************************
>> ************
>> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
>> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
>> 
>> Wallace Correspondence Project: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749331703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=o3%2B2jtsEmf0bwUgUkmFxT8z%2B34ujNuDL%2BzX5HQ7h91w%3D&reserved=0
>> Wallace Memorial Fund: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallacefund.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749331703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lGaFzOdfYwQCr67SITBXWLB2PcerzeKT3%2F1jB6UYlLM%3D&reserved=0
>> ResearchGate: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Beccaloni-2&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749331703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FK94ydp3WO9dB7wxXD3E1VzDm72MvUQj4IDDArZg6fo%3D&reserved=0
>> ****************************************************************
>> ************
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 at 18:47, Dochterland <dochterland at telenet.be> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear all,
>>> 
>>> In the beginning I feared this discussion on gender agreement would
>>> lead to a lot of quarreling, but as a matter of fact the whole
>>> discussion was balanced and raised interesting points. Someone should
>>> write an article on this, if it has not already been done.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Jan
>>> 
>>>> Op 28 jun. 2023, om 17:30 heeft George Beccaloni via Taxacom <
>>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> het volgende geschreven:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Doug,
>>>> 
>>>> So you are advocating leaving gender agreement in the Code and not
>>> allowing
>>>> a vote on it... All you are proposing is to make it easier for
>>>> people to genderise names... As I and others have argued, gender
>>>> agreement is an outmoded practice which serves absolutely no USEFUL
>>>> function. It makes a mockery of the concept of species-group names being
>> unique identifiers.
>>>> Reverting to the original spelling would be easy to do, and once it
>>>> had been done, the spellings of the names would never, ever have to
>>>> change -
>>> to
>>>> much rejoicing by many taxonomists and people involved in bioinformatics.
>>>> At last we would have unique identifiers! At last, we wouldn't need
>>>> to spend unnecessary time and effort recording the genders of names
>>>> in our databases, and have the burden of recording future changes to
>>>> them made
>>> in
>>>> the name of gender agreement!
>>>> 
>>>> I fear that if there is opposition to such a relatively minor change
>>>> to
>>> the
>>>> Code, that nothing more wide ranging and radical (like having one
>>>> Code
>>> for
>>>> all of life) is ever likely to happen.
>>>> 
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> 
>>>> George
>>>> 
>>> 
>> ****************************************************************
>> ******
>>> ******
>>>> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
>>>> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
>>>> 
>>>> Wallace Correspondence Project:
>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749331703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=o3%2B2jtsEmf0bwUgUkmFxT8z%2B34ujNuDL%2BzX5HQ7h91w%3D&reserved=0
>>>> Wallace Memorial Fund: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallacefund.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749331703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lGaFzOdfYwQCr67SITBXWLB2PcerzeKT3%2F1jB6UYlLM%3D&reserved=0
>>>> ResearchGate:
>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Beccaloni-2&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749331703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FK94ydp3WO9dB7wxXD3E1VzDm72MvUQj4IDDArZg6fo%3D&reserved=0
>>>> 
>>> 
>> ****************************************************************
>> ******
>>> ******
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 at 16:09, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom <
>>>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 6/27/23 11:51 PM, Mark D. Scherz via Taxacom wrote:
>>>>>> It should read ‘in principle, in most cases, if you have a good
>>>>>> working knowledge of Latin declensions…’. George pointed out that
>>>>>> this
>>> knowledge
>>>>> is
>>>>>> not widespread. So far I have only seen numbers on the US here. In
>>>>>> the
>>>>> UK,
>>>>>> less than 3% of students have Latin in school. In Germany, less
>>>>>> than 5%
>>>>> and
>>>>>> declining. And these are countries with long traditions of
>>>>>> classics;
>>> most
>>>>>> of the world has less than this. I’d be very interested to know
>>>>>> the
>>> stats
>>>>>> on Latin teaching in India and China. The point being, this
>>>>>> ability,
>>>>> while
>>>>>> achievable, is available to a privileged few.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I prefer the up-front investment of time to discuss it here, if it
>>> could
>>>>>> potentially save time in the future.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Then I'll reiterate what I've been advocating:
>>>>> 
>>>>> We (the ICZN) leave the rules in place, but provide two things that
>>>>> would *completely eliminate the need for anyone to learn or
>>>>> understand Latin or Greek*:
>>>>> 
>>>>> (1) We provide a single official list of all genus names and their
>>>>> genders. Contrary to what others here have claimed, we do *already*
>>>>> have an essentially complete list of genus names (ambiregnal, not
>>>>> just zoology; see the IRMNG), and the genders are known for a
>>>>> substantial number of them. Coordinating efforts to get the list
>>>>> "fleshed out" are under way. This is pretty readily attainable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> (2) We provide a single official list that explains which species
>>>>> epithets are declinable adjectives and which ones are ambiguous.
>>>>> Anything not on the list is treated as a noun, and never changes
>>>>> spelling. This is a little trickier to organize, but should also be
>>>>> attainable. For example, I've personally screened over 200,000
>>>>> species-group names, which is over 10% of all zoological names -
>>>>> and other researchers have done the same for their groups.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Again, we agree that there is no justification for *compelling*
>>>>> taxonomists to learn Latin or Greek, not because gender agreement
>>>>> is an outdated practice or unnecessary, but because a taxonomist
>>>>> does not need to know Latin or Greek to *look a name up in a list*.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Would you support the implementation of such a system?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Remember, we are aware that people don't like the status quo, and
>>>>> we are also aware that completely reverting to original spellings
>>>>> for all names is not an option. We want people to consider reasonable
>> alternatives.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Further, the only thing taxonomists are *actually* compelled to do
>>>>> under the ICZN is to read the original description in the 8% of
>>>>> cases that are ambiguous and fall under Article 31.2.2. Even that
>>>>> 8% may ultimately be an overestimate, if we decide to follow the
>>>>> example of the botanists and decide that certain ambiguous
>>>>> terms/suffixes are going to be ALWAYS be treated arbitrarily as
>>>>> nouns, even when they have some historical usage as adjectives (and
>>>>> vice-versa, for certain names that we decide should ALWAYS be treated
>> arbitrarily as adjectives, like the epithet "alba").
>>>>> In fact, by creating an official list, we could *potentially*
>>>>> eliminate Article 31.2.2 entirely, and have NO ambiguous names,
>>>>> *and* eliminate the need to consult original descriptions.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Peace,
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology      Entomology Research Museum
>>>>> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314    skype: dyanega
>>>>> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
>>>>>              https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffaculty.ucr.edu%2F~heraty%2Fyanega.html&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749487940%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nH3avb68EvIOOpGYq9O7sEwbN57mSxhQJlrqQsl10zw%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>    "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
>>>>>          is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring
>>>>> alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
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>>>> list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
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>>>> 
>>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration
>>>> for
>>> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about
>> 36 years, 1987-2023.
> 
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> 
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
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> 
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.

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Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.



-- 
Dunedin, New Zealand.  My books:

Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca Raton FL. 2017.  https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749487940%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LzbNcDdigfVOQ1mrqTu50O80UZY3Dwhd1ItgnMoF95o%3D&reserved=0




Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749487940%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=f7Y6jiBDKwEN8msG6oFcBKcdrdwqog20X76PSCNPewA%3D&reserved=0 




Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. University of California Press, Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749487940%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FjGXwZYh8WZSGvQmDis99QcnDvIVXjxcY9QEAslRqGQ%3D&reserved=0




Panbiogeography:Tracking the history of life. Oxford University Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan). https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cc2101c3902dd4671374808db7adb1bd3%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238853749487940%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=T%2BHQ%2FuRBSdRyTvPNfY2rMkxV9RLKLoY3aHjkIWXPeJ4%3D&reserved=0

              




 




 

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