[Taxacom] Molecular evidence (in 2017) supports my 2014 theory
about rafting killifish
Michael A. Ivie
mivie at montana.edu
Fri Jan 1 16:41:13 CST 2021
2021
Yes, that is getting there. Cite those studies that also support your
argument that are not part of the "panbiogeography literature."
>
> "You keep citing the panbiogeography literature as justification for
> the Panbiogeography view."
>
> Apologies if that appeared to be the case. I was probably citing the
> literature as having the studies pertinent to the issues. But if you
> can refer me to something specific I can address that.
>
> This is like citing Scientology literature to explain Scientology
> reality.
>
> Not having studied Scientology in any detail I don't know. But agreed,
> I have cited panbiogeographic studies to explain or present their results.
>
> Can you use something independent to support your views? Or does it
> have to be internal “evidence?” Because that is not logically convincing.
>
> What do you mean as 'something independent' to support the
> panbiogeographic conclusions? I guess it's up to you and everyone
> else to decide what is sufficient as 'support'. For example there are
> over 225 documented cases of disjunctions or offsets either side of
> the Alpine Fault of New Zealand where the lateral movement was
> initiated 23 Ma. The panbiogeographic view is that there is a causal
> connection so all of these taxa (or their immediate ancestors for
> sister group disjunctions) are at least 23 Ma. I suppose one could
> just take the view that the correlation is meaningless. In which case
> I suppose nothing will be 'convincing'.
>
> Now that I write this I recall that there have been frequent instances
> where molecular divergence estimates are older or match the
> panbiogeographic findings. So that is a sort of independent evidence
> I suppose. These are regularly cited in Heads' studies. And don't
> forget those novel geological predictions that have since been
> corroborated by geological discovery. I've mentioned that in the past
> and some respond with indifference. Each to their own.
>
> Cheers, John Grehan
>
> On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 2:17 PM Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu
> <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>> wrote:
>
> You keep citing the panbiogeography literature as justification
> for the Panbiogeography view. This is like citing Scientology
> literature to explain Scientology reality. Can you use something
> independent to support your views? Or does it have to be internal
> “evidence?” Because that is not logically convincing.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> *US Post Office Address:*
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> *UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:*
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> on behalf of John
> Grehan via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> *Sent:* Friday, January 1, 2021 9:56 AM
> *To:* Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com <mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>
> *Cc:* taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> *Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] Molecular evidence (in 2017) supports my
> 2014 theory about rafting killifish
> Hi Ken,
>
> The idea that there has to be a constant molecular clock
> throughout the
> phylogenetic history of a group is not an empirical finding. It is
> a model
> of evolution that may not be true. We see this in the
> morphological aspect
> of molecular genetics where different groups separated or
> dislocated by a
> tectonic feature show different levels of morphological divergence
> (for
> example with the NZ Alpine fault dislocation where correlated
> distributions
> may be conspecific or species level differences even after more
> than 20
> million years. So the panbiogeographic implication of tectonic
> correlation
> is that this provides an approximation of age for the correlated
> groups. It
> has no necessary implication for the upper limits of their
> phylogenetic
> origins involving other sister taxa. If molecular clock models
> incorporating a tectonic correlation result in unacceptable
> results that
> does not invalidate the tectonic correlation. But it does raise
> questions
> about the molecular model. Nothing ridiculous about it at all.
> This has
> been commented on in the panbiogeography literature.
>
> Whether or not the acceptance of geological correlations as an
> empirical source of evidence for vicariance is 'extreme obsession'
> or not
> is neither here nor there. Fact is that fossil calibrated divergence
> estimates are minimums and no one, including yourself, has
> demonstrated
> anything to the contrary. And now what has been drawn to attention
> is the
> larger and more problematic issue as to whether there is a constant
> molecular clock over long periods of time. Like priors, molecular
> clocks
> are also theoretical models (and there are different models) and
> open to
> question or refutation. I would like to see you, Ken, show how a
> constant
> molecular clock is substantiated as empirical evidence (I guess
> you won't
> based on your past reluctance concerning fossil calibration, but I
> might as
> well ask).
>
> Cheers, John Grehan
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 10:59 AM Kenneth Kinman via Taxacom <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> wrote:
>
> > Hi Rob,
> > Thank you for the work you have done on this subject in
> spite of
> > panbiogeographer's criticisms. I just read your critique of
> Heads, 2005
> > (Smissen et al., 2005 "Dating nodes on molecular phylogenies:
> older or
> > younger than the Earth itself?"
> > The following is certainly a valid criticism of Heads:
> "If this
> > was then extrapolated to the tribal‐level divergences (around 0.4
> > substitutions per site) within the Caryophyllaceae that we used as a
> > calibration for our dating, then the Caryophyllaceae are
> projected to be in
> > excess of 10 billion years old."
> > It would take an extremely wild fluctuating molecular
> clock for
> > panbiogeographers to explain this away. And yet all Grehan
> could suggest
> > in his latest post was: "Only if the 'clock' was constant
> throughout.
> > Maybe it's not." That is a rather ridiculous statement, and
> certainly
> > provides none of the "empirical evidence" that he is always
> demanding. It
> > only provides yet another example of their extreme obsession with
> > vicariance.
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fj.1096-0031.2005.00077.x&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171721685%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=reRAYgm23itk6cbeV82NIa9r52s3NraTNUQuOZ%2BSjsk%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1111%2Fj.1096-0031.2005.00077.x&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646053978%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=nFpdASvV9do2kX7j9BHPGgLOytA2wg9D%2Fd6%2FvJUdpdE%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> on behalf of Rob
> > Smissen via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 2:59 AM
> > To: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com
> <mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com>>; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> <
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Molecular evidence (in 2017) supports my 2014
> > theory about rafting killifish
> >
> > I think this sort of argument is why people consider
> panbiogeography to be
> > analogous with creationism. Personally, I don’t think it’s a
> fair analogy.
> > Creationism is significantly less credible than panbiogeography,
> but that
> > is not saying much. It is not enough to say that clades might be
> older than
> > guestimated from the fossil record, or that molecular clocks are
> very bad
> > clocks. I would like to see the panbiogeographers accounts of
> how among
> > lineage rate variation and older ages of fossils combine to explain
> > patterns in DNA sequence data. It’s a black art, put in whatever
> priors you
> > want, give us some actual results.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> On Behalf Of John
> > Grehan via Taxacom
> > Sent: Tuesday, 29 December 2020 10:57 AM
> > To: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com <mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com>>
> > Cc: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Molecular evidence (in 2017) supports my 2014
> > theory about rafting killifish
> >
> > One interesting thing about De Baets et al is that one of the
> authors,
> > Philip Donoghue, is a molecular biologist who has published on
> molecular
> > systematics. Makes one wonder (or it should) that a molecular
> systematists
> > resorts to referring to molecular divergence practice as a 'dark
> art'. If a
> > molecular systematists can't make scientific sense of it, who
> can? I am
> > assuming that Donoghue isn't stupid.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 1:07 PM Michael Heads via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Ken, you write: 'It is interesting that Heads quotes De Baets *et
> > > al*.,
> > > 2016 as saying ‘could be considered a dark art’, but their
> source for
> > > that "dark art" comment was Heads himself (Heads, 2012; "Bayesian
> > > transmogrifcation..."'). That's not correct.
> > >
> > > De Baets et al wrote: '...molecular clocks must be calibrated by
> > > estimates of divergence timing and so it has become necessary [if
> > > you're relying on fossils] to provide a probabilistic
> judgement of the
> > > degree to which fossil minima approximate divergence timing. The
> > > established means of achieving this could be considered a dark art
> > > (Heads, 2012)'. But I did not use the phrase 'dark art' in my own
> > > paper or anywhere else.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 9:57 AM Kenneth Kinman via Taxacom <
> > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks Jason,
> > > > Your post was very good. It was then followed by
> Heads who
> > > > (like
> > > > Grehan) just repeats the same old arguments. It is
> interesting that
> > > Heads
> > > > quotes De Baets *et al*., 2016 as saying ‘could be
> considered a dark
> > > art’,
> > > > but their source for that "dark art" comment was Heads himself
> > > > (Heads, 2012; "Bayesian transmogrifcation...").
> > > > I don't understand why Heads and Grehan have to bash
> those
> > > > who disagree with them, using phrases like "dark art", twaddle,
> > > > transmogrification, "geological data manipulation", "magical
> black
> > > > box", and on and on. Especially when it appears in
> scientific papers.
> > > > By the way, I was reading a published reply to Heads,
> 2011
> > > > (in which he repeatedly accused his opponents of
> > > > transmogrification). In
> > > that
> > > > reply, they say: "We demonstrate here that calibration using
> > > > tectonic events, as suggested by Heads (2011), generates an
> > > > unrealistic hypothesis where the evolution of Asteraceae
> must have
> > > > taken place contemporary with or earlier than the Cambrian
> > > > explosion. This would be hundreds of million years earlier
> than the
> > origin of the asterids."
> > > > This reply to Heads can be read here:
> > > >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Facademic.oup.com%2Fsysbio%2Farticle%2F61%2F3%2F522%2F1670654&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171721685%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=vmCO53XuYax3coRP1mfrM70JccI9%2Fo880r6BILjDVVw%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Facademic.oup.com%2Fsysbio%2Farticle%2F61%2F3%2F522%2F1670654&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646063972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=XMnaUn1l5DFxtyQHDBsqkGWW8xeGZfN3s%2Bhk644svH8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> on behalf of
> > > > Michael Heads via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:26 PM
> > > > To: JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com
> <mailto:aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>>
> > > > Cc: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Molecular evidence (in 2017) supports
> my 2014
> > > > theory about rafting killifish
> > > >
> > > > '...not a magical black box'.
> > > >
> > > > No, it's definitely a magical black box. You can get any
> date you want.
> > > > Here's a section from a recent manuscript:
> > > >
> > > > *The problem of the priors*
> > > >
> > > > In the Modern Synthesis approach, ‘Fossils record the
> origins and
> > > > disappearance of organisms’ (Herrera, 2017). However, a clade’s
> > > > actual
> > > age
> > > > is older than its oldest fossil’s age by an unknown amount
> of time.
> > > > In
> > > most
> > > > studies, clade ages are calculated from fossil-calibrated
> > > > molecular-clock analyses. However, fossil calibrated studies on
> > > > their own can provide
> > > only
> > > > minimum ages. In Bayesian analyses, these *fossil* ages are
> > > > converted
> > > into
> > > > estimates of absolute (not minimum) *clade* ages by imposing
> priors
> > > > that stipulate how much older than its oldest fossil a clade is.
> > > > Naturally,
> > > the
> > > > estimates of clade age are extremely sensitive to the time
> priors
> > > (Warnock
> > > > *et
> > > > al*., 2015).
> > > >
> > > > The problem is that the choice of the priors is left up to the
> > > > author,
> > > and
> > > > the priors that are chosen are invariably very narrow; in other
> > > > words, a clade used for calibration is assumed to be not
> much older
> > > > (often <10
> > > Myr)
> > > > than
> > > > its oldest fossil. This use of very narrow priors represents the
> > > > formal imposition of an old belief – that fossil age more or
> less
> > > > equals clade age.
> > > >
> > > > Choosing priors is ‘highly arbitrary’ (Pirie and Doyle, 2012),
> > > > ‘...often subjective…’ (Ho & Duchêne, 2014), ‘invariably
> established
> > > > without justification’ (Warnock *et al*., 2015) and, in sum,
> ‘could
> > > > be
> > > considered a
> > > > dark art’ (De Baets *et al*., 2016). Thus, while the clade ages
> > > > generated in Bayesian studies are extremely precise and have
> > > > excellent statistical support, becaue of the problem of the
> priors
> > > > they can be ‘grossly inaccurate’ (dos Reis *et al*., 2016)
> and could
> > > > be tens or even hundreds
> > > of
> > > > millions of years too young. As Hauenschild *et al.* (2018)
> > > > observed,
> > > clade
> > > > ages that are too young may be calculated ‘based on too
> narrowly set
> > > > priors, and vicariance thereby may be erroneously ruled out’.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 2:59 AM JF Mate via Taxacom <
> > > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > John, you are not discussing the points nor answering the
> > > > > questions but simply repeating "twaddle" in an attempt to
> rescue a
> > > > > point of view (Croizatian Panbiogeography) which is simply
> > > > > untenable nowadays. All biogeographers consider vicariance and
> > > > > dispersal, and their definition
> > > of
> > > > > dispersal does not depend on accepting Panbiogeography.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for node calibration, exponential and lognormal bounds
> are not
> > > maximum
> > > > > ages but probability curves which extend the "minimum"
> node age
> > > > > into
> > > the
> > > > > past as a first step. The model then works the best fit
> based on
> > > > > the
> > > data
> > > > > at hand and gives you estimated ages with ranges. That is a
> > > > > transparent model, not a magical black box as you are
> claiming.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is fair to argue if the model parameters are adequate,
> if the
> > > fossils
> > > > > used are properly interpreted, or to reanalyze the data.
> These are
> > > > > all limitations, but simply using them to disregard
> studies out of
> > > > > hand
> > > > because
> > > > > they don't support your point of view is not helpful.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best
> > > > >
> > > > > Jason
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, 01:57 John Grehan,
> <calabar.john at gmail.com <mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jason – thank you for elaborating on the defense of minimums
> > > > > > misrepresented as maximums. Comment below:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “0.5 SD on the fossil's age seems a reasonable and
> conservative
> > > range”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'reasonable or not' it's still just made up out of thin
> air. It
> > > > > > is
> > > > magic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “Are you arguing for a minimum hardbound and if so what
> is your
> > > > > > justification? “
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, although not sure what you mean by 'hardbound'. A
> minimum
> > > > > > is a minimum so it is hardbound in that respect.
> Justification
> > > > > > is simple, fossils provide minimum ages and no data on
> potential
> > > > > > older ages of
> > > > > origin
> > > > > > for the taxon in question.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “why not use lognormal or exponential for both points
> and maybe
> > > > > > some sensitivity analysis in regards to this but other
> than that
> > > > > > I
> > > wouldn't
> > > > > call
> > > > > > it twaddle”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are welcome to use anything you like, but it's still
> magic
> > > > > > and
> > > the
> > > > > > result is twaddle. A minimum cannot be turned into a
> maximum.
> > > > > > That is
> > > > the
> > > > > > reality. The rest is an invention of the imagination.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “This argument is at best specious. Molecular
> calibrations have
> > > > > > been
> > > > > using
> > > > > > soft calibrations for well over a decade now to account
> for the
> > > > > > uncertainties that you mention “
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wrong, the molecular calibrations misrepresent minimum
> ages as
> > > maximum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “ majority use either lognormal or exponential bounds “
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So what? They are both inventions of the mind – magical
> > > transformation
> > > > of
> > > > > > minimum into maximum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “In other words, there is already the acknowledgement
> that known
> > > > fossils
> > > > > > may not be the oldest exemplars of a taxon, but you have
> to work
> > > > > > with
> > > > > what
> > > > > > you have
> > > > > >
> > > > > > of course. But if fossils may not be the oldest
> exemplars then
> > > > > > the molecular extrapolations may not be either. To say
> otherwise
> > > > > > is to
> > > > > invoke a
> > > > > > magical transformation - not science as I understand it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “ and, when new fossil evidence is discovered,
> corrections will
> > > > > > be
> > > > made.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Corrections to what? Corrections to a maximum that never
> was in
> > > > > > the
> > > > first
> > > > > > place?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “What you are asking for is the legal equivalent of proving
> > > > > > someone's innocence.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rubbish. I am asking that the empirical reality be
> recognized –
> > > > > > that fossil calibrated molecular divergence dates be
> recognized
> > > > > > as minions
> > > > > that
> > > > > > cannot falsify earlier origins or biogeographic correlations
> > > > > > that may suggest earlier origins.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Molecular transformations of minimums into maximums is
> perhaps
> > > > > > the
> > > only
> > > > > > modern case of magic being used in science that I am
> aware of
> > > > > > (other
> > > > than
> > > > > > perhaps some political inventions with COVID). Just to
> be sure
> > > > > > that
> > > > there
> > > > > > is no misunderstanding (as has happened in the literature),
> > > > > > panbiogeographic approaches do not ignore or disregard
> molecular
> > > > > divergence
> > > > > > ages, but accept and incorporate those findings as
> MINIMUM ages
> > only.
> > > > > That
> > > > > > is science.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John Grehan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 7:01 AM JF Mate
> > > > > > <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com <mailto:aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Michael, regarding the calibration method used: "It
> corresponds
> > > > > >> to
> > > the
> > > > > >> origin of the crown European cyprinodontoid clade [39],
> which
> > > > > >> was
> > > > > estimated
> > > > > >> to have occurred at least 33 Ma on the basis of the oldest
> > > > identifiable
> > > > > >> clade member, the
> > > > > >> fossil Prolebias stenoura Sauvage, 1874 from the Lower
> Stampien
> > > (Lower
> > > > > >> Oligocene) of Puy-
> > > > > >> de-Dome, France [40] (prior setting: lognormal
> distribution,
> > > > > >> mean =
> > > 33
> > > > > >> and standard devia-
> > > > > >> tion = 0.5). ( [40] Costa WJEM. Oligocene killifishes
> (Teleostei:
> > > > > >> Cyprinodontiformes) from southern France: relationships,
> > > > > >> taxonomic position, and evidence of internal fertilization.
> > Vertebr Zool.
> > > 2012;
> > > > > 62:
> > > > > >> 371–386.)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> John:
> > > > > >> 0.5 SD on the fossil's age seems a reasonable and
> conservative
> > > range,
> > > > > >> with a lognormal distribution for the node. My only
> quibble is
> > > > > >> why
> > > not
> > > > > use
> > > > > >> lognormal or exponential for both points and maybe some
> > > > > >> sentivity
> > > > > analysis
> > > > > >> in regards to this but other than that I wouldn't call
> it twaddle.
> > > Are
> > > > > you
> > > > > >> arguing for a minimum hardbound and if so what is your
> > > justification?
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > >
> > > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > > >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171721685%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=7PP%2BqZtd1xrfZ5U6jSzfmIlsyKL36ebc%2BuqhIfuyXb0%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646063972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3kxXNvzdzSvMv4US7fFJoQHqFx112vNxJWXPBzViyi4%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > > >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=kHceOwKuCh6Cj76hiA83qn4xh%2Bn3sVSULz9PY6tfRGY%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646073968%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=IUQRj3GIx1moIbuHGaqOtHw8fiY854w2wzNJhmNNkzo%3D&reserved=0>
> > > >
> > > > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> > > 1987-2020.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> > >
> > > My books:
> > >
> > > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and
> Francis/CRC,
> > > Boca Raton FL. 2017.
> > >
> > >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHe&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=rKB7Ru8jKvLARnVzC2bGkEOi1Zs5%2FmvPEgkNRdyknN4%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHe&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646073968%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=dAcqvy2YSnWW%2FtmqxqgjFiH42yraXzaqxBVl%2FaP5JEQ%3D&reserved=0>
> > > ads/p/book/9781498751872
> > >
> > >
> > > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> > > University Press, Cambridge. 2014.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=OuqkLz955OExSc8Kv6m%2B1UNLlkHb0aM6ad%2FZeHBr%2Fs4%3D&reserved=0<
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646083959%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=EpjhAQv3tlgH8J2xjD%2FPi7goYuwrZ1XB2G%2Bl3eSb1qE%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=OuqkLz955OExSc8Kv6m%2B1UNLlkHb0aM6ad%2FZeHBr%2Fs4%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646093954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=8EQCdTwTkaPdm7mRVPQlJ2puYXeV5BSwxfYalyCd304%3D&reserved=0>>
> > >
> > >
> > > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of
> California
> > > Press, Berkeley. 2012.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=o4QNtrTWFXhDGQRvwpcTGsIRoJutDBja5rcvW2GcgWc%3D&reserved=0<
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646093954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=CfrBAvowzyrDdeje3v0UAjXefGh5KQOgziqxkevjt%2Bc%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=o4QNtrTWFXhDGQRvwpcTGsIRoJutDBja5rcvW2GcgWc%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646103950%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=IaiCRctQiDkwLPaAHoyjqQtduRCv7xW08owEYmtgkIQ%3D&reserved=0>>
> > >
> > >
> > > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University
> > > Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> > >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Tjm7OnnrK%2BGHe1YgSVD1neGHACh59FdRPZw5Ndg8cPc%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646103950%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=D3PC2rqUYa66xt6XJVkEc6fhA5XpkC72LUgSNyBkKeE%3D&reserved=0>
> > > <
> > >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26sou&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=EUvpKEDK5iEhHX0yKpXgEMobl6k3DLEeBscF05sMTP4%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26sou&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646113941%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=45ZivClxSuWvlVinv2Pf05qn5aY7mCVsiJ0s7hEB9Ko%3D&reserved=0>
> > > rce=gbs_navlinks_s
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=O9xBNmCk2CBJ4kFVzYXgQwCaPMpxixl38B3cNWfC0GE%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646113941%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Sq9t5lAl4IE8IyNB2aiPMcKKAGLvrq8734D0e1EA0rw%3D&reserved=0>
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=kHceOwKuCh6Cj76hiA83qn4xh%2Bn3sVSULz9PY6tfRGY%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646123937%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ONdCFfYAIcoTzhXO2zA6jwq3P0efaBbdvFAm52HtFUk%3D&reserved=0>
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> > 1987-2020.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> For
> > list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=O9xBNmCk2CBJ4kFVzYXgQwCaPMpxixl38B3cNWfC0GE%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646133933%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=2IaFIRG%2FnLdO9%2BcWwmjUoRDKjOvS4mZofZ1gJuICCUQ%3D&reserved=0>
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> The Taxacom email
> archive back to 1992
> > can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=kHceOwKuCh6Cj76hiA83qn4xh%2Bn3sVSULz9PY6tfRGY%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646133933%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=5XdXePY%2BeB26IXB%2FUfUVY2va0FO6vvqs9HzQISmddZ8%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> 1987-2020.
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > Please consider the environment before printing this email
> > Warning: This electronic message together with any attachments is
> > confidential. If you receive it in error: (i) you must not read,
> use,
> > disclose, copy or retain it; (ii) please contact the sender
> immediately by
> > reply email and then delete the emails.
> > The views expressed in this email may not be those of Landcare
> Research
> > New Zealand Limited.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.landcareresearch.co.nz%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Mw%2BU0E3IXIc8QBiPehCRoFL6bfOanbrNQVC1yOJ3is0%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.landcareresearch.co.nz%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646143925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=dUqHyl30d%2BKo8WlpWe8PQa7F287u7LTlRx8uF%2F0bx80%3D&reserved=0>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171731680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=O9xBNmCk2CBJ4kFVzYXgQwCaPMpxixl38B3cNWfC0GE%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646143925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=TUwkKgjIrdh8C%2BR94Pw%2Bc6B9UXQcZw611Z%2BmuCVJbjY%3D&reserved=0>
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171741674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=TNfEK0YYilKN87b0Rj2mEdhsjZrBrfuG%2B7%2BOG57oak0%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646153919%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=XvI%2Fk1QdvDdzoxbsOViuyqHdBL8PTswt5f3cMGG55Q8%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> 1987-2020.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171741674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=G1876hD2V72qZo0dsVSefxFMq6ptFBHMx9YE8wU7nDY%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646153919%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Ink9g3bB96MIgUWq5%2FUuR5XlqQsYAXuvR%2FXXl5Mqjec%3D&reserved=0>
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171741674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=TNfEK0YYilKN87b0Rj2mEdhsjZrBrfuG%2B7%2BOG57oak0%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646163914%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=TT8nExXz0XnKKn8RgFHqNxC56Wu5wzQBJ0b6VeYl83g%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> 1987-2020.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171741674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=G1876hD2V72qZo0dsVSefxFMq6ptFBHMx9YE8wU7nDY%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.nhm.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646163914%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=nkcLNg6Q%2BpIFKJvgqRzVi3zfalGTsOjjE4cUGH7I5f8%3D&reserved=0>
> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> <mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protectio
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnam10.safelinks.protectio%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646173905%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=9571sEJq%2FemfiwdBrDUD8GWRyVeWeEIPE5v959R3Gro%3D&reserved=0>n.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C7a3eaa762f0646a6459b08d8ae763cf9%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451170171741674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=TNfEK0YYilKN87b0Rj2mEdhsjZrBrfuG%2B7%2BOG57oak0%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7Ca0f7a64f09004a537c8808d8aea561d0%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637451372646173905%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=iiUVqcVpdh75B9HjjDMP3wVphm22yUVNmciZYYy%2Fv4I%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for about 33 years,
> 1987-2020.
>
--
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
PO Box 173145
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA
UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA
(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu
More information about the Taxacom
mailing list