[Taxacom] more science nonsense

Fri Oct 4 00:08:15 CDT 2019

I was referring to your perspective on panbiogeography, or rather on
perspectives critical of it.
As I said, no point arguing.

Jason

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 02:02, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Jason - I was not aware I was presenting cladistic biogeography ("this boils down to your perspective on cladistic biogeography"). What is cladistic biogeography and in what way was I presenting a defining characteristic of that research program?
>
> John Grehan
>
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 8:11 PM JF Mate via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I think this is going to lead nowhere. I am ignorant of "bird"
>> systematics but after a quick check of the article´s phylogeny and the
>> distribution of fossils, it looks like the area of origin is still
>> confused. Having said that the authors said it was suggestive (and I
>> agree) and as such they are making an educated guess based on the fact
>> that the most primitive known taxon is SH, and most derived taxa are
>> also SH. Maybe if they threw into the phylogeny the known species of
>> Pelagornis and Dasornis then more could be said. (so a draw IMO)
>>
>> However the statement "... there never has been any empirical
>> demonstration that the location of the oldest fossil corresponds
>> to the oldest occupied area for a taxon." is more telling.
>> Evolutionary history is reconstructive and as such there is loss of
>> information. Its study only makes sense if you accept that the
>> simplest explanation is the likeliest, which in the case of fossils
>> means that the area of distribution of the taxon must coincide with
>> that of the fossil, and must reflect the inferred biology and
>> "typical" distribution of similar taxa. Evolutionary sciences are
>> often accused of being slightly about "just so stories" and there is
>> some truth to that because there is an awful lot of gaps to fill. On
>> the other hand it is dangerous to use the gaps as evidence.
>>
>> In the end this boils down to your perspective on cladistic
>> biogeography, and we all know where the lines in the sand lie.
>>
>> J
>>
>> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 05:55, Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom
>> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >  John,I'd like to know what other Taxacomers think about this, as it is crucial to the proper understanding of science itself. You seem to be trying to undermine scientific inferences on the basis that there are other possible explanations of the same facts. That might be a sensible approach to certain kinds of cases, but not ones of this kind, I suggest. You seem to be conflating certainty with empirical support (for a hypothesis). Science isn't about determining the truth, it is about being led by evidence. If the oldest and most primitive member of a group is discovered as a fossil in the S Hemisphere, then that evidence suggests a S Hemisphere origin for the group. Sure, there are other, more convoluted possibilities which could be wheeled in ad hoc, but that's not science! The authors are not claiming any certainty of a S Hemisphere origin for the group, merely that such an origin is suggested by the available evidence. I see no particular problem with this, except perhaps the overly heavy weight that science puts on working with mere inconclusive suggestions from empirical evidence. For applied science, at the end of the day, somethinbg either works or it doesn't, but, for pure science, the inconclusive suggestions just lead to inconclusive theories with which scientists occupy their time and resources, but for what???Stephen
>> >     On Wednesday, 2 October 2019, 02:11:13 pm UTC, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >  Stephen - the assertion that a southern hemisphere origin "is suggested by the new evidence" is indeed nonsense. The fossil can only suggest that a clade was present at a particular place and time. Empirically it says nothing about the origin of the taxon with respect to younger fossils elsewhere. Its quite possible that the group had its origin from a widespread ancestor that was in both the northern and southern hemisphere and the (current) oldest fossil happens to be located in the south. It does not matter that the fossil may represent the basal lineage as this may just represent an initial vicariance. So dreaming up a local (southern) origin is not science at all, just nonsense.
>> >
>> > John Grehan
>> > On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 11:21 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>> >
>> >  Hold on there one minute John!On the scale of "science nonsense", this might not even qualify! The key word is "suggests". The fossil does demonstrate that the oldest and most primitive *known* member of the group is from the Southern Hemisphere, so that it *evidence* that the group evolved there. It is the simplest explanation of the known facts, that's all. Otherwise, you have to posit the existence of unknown like fossils in the Northern Hemisphere, for which there is currently no evidence, and consider it chance that the first such fossil just happened to be found in the Southern Hemisphere. Sure, that it *possible*, but nobody seems to be saying that a Southern Hemisphere origin it is 100% certain, just that it is suggested by the new evidence.Stephen
>> >     On Wednesday, 2 October 2019, 03:04:40 am UTC, John Grehan via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >  Never ceases to amaze me. In a recent paper the following assertion:
>> >
>> > "All previously known Paleocene records of pelagornithids stem from the
>> > Northern Hemisphere, but as the oldest and phylogenetically most basal
>> > representative,
>> > Protodontopteryx suggests that these birds actually evolved in the Southern
>> > Hemisphere."
>> >
>> > Apart from the  center of origin illusion, there never has been any
>> > empirical demonstration that the location of the oldest fossil corresponds
>> > to the oldest occupied area for a taxon. But still they keep saying it as
>> > if it were real.
>> >
>> > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335873378_Oldest_smallest_and_phylogenetically_most_basal_pelagornithid_from_the_early_Paleocene_of_New_Zealand_sheds_light_on_the_evolutionary_history_of_the_largest_flying_birds
>> >
>> >
>> > John Grehan
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