Taxacom: A compromise solution (was Re: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug Yanega many proposals to this list))

Thu Jul 6 21:13:29 CDT 2023

Michael, the original generic placement is fixed. It is called the original combination (zoology) or basionym (botany) and it never changes. The only way your suggestion might just be accepted would be a rule that the original combination should be stated for each binomial mentioned in a publication, perhaps in the methods section for a publication that is not a taxonomic revision (these should already give original combinations in taxonomic treatments).
Stephen 

Sent from my iPhone

> On 7/07/2023, at 1:15 PM, Sharkey, Michael J. via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> 
> I am not one for radical changes, but the bigger problem to nomenclatorial stability and the retrieval of information on species is that their placement  at the generic level often changes over time. Why not instate a rule where the original placement and species epithet are fixed. This would require a taxonomic rank above the genus level where we could all play with our differing hypotheses.
> Mike
> 
> 
> msharkey at uky.edu
> sharkeylab.org
> 41482 Alder Dr.
> Forest Falls, CA
> 92339
> (859)396-1649
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of George Beccaloni via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2023 6:05:35 PM
> To: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: A compromise solution (was Re: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug Yanega many proposals to this list))
> 
> CAUTION: External Sender
> 
> 
> I suggested to Bernard D'Abrera as a joke that he should give a new
> butterfly taxon an unpronounceable name and he went on to describe Theope
> archimedes zyzyxoxyx D'Abrera, 1994
> 
> George
> ****************************************************************************
> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
> 
> Wallace Correspondence Project: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250546050%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YH65wQ4sOfL5v8d1S8PRtB%2FmZktGXVxEh3og5kv30Tw%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250546050%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YH65wQ4sOfL5v8d1S8PRtB%2FmZktGXVxEh3og5kv30Tw%3D&reserved=0>
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> ****************************************************************************
> 
> 
> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 01:22, Michael Heads via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> wrote:
> 
>> In Lepidoptera compared with other groups there seem to be (???) many more
>> proper names used as nouns in apposition, so the whole noun + adjective
>> gender agreement system breaks down/becomes a bit irrelevant.
>>   On a lighter note, a name should  above all be memorable, for whatever
>> reason. The Pacific landsnails Aaadonta and Zyzzyxodonta were Alan Solem's
>> brazen attempt to be first and last in Mollusca, but it was funny and the
>> names are memorable.
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 11:48 AM Francisco Welter-Schultes via Taxacom <
>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> My dear, what an endless debate. This gender debate issue pops up every
>>> once and a while, but rarely in such an intensity as this time.
>>> 
>>> I imagine 30 years ago there have been almost exactly the same
>>> arguments, and Code-4 did not find a solution. If Code-5 does not find a
>>> solution the endless debate will be perpetuated.
>>> 
>>> As the head of the Code-5 Committee I am not happy with this situation.
>>> 
>>> I am asking myself what an average lepidopterist would say? Maybe they
>>> would just say "We are so happy that we do not need to discuss such
>>> stuff, we can just smile that we do not have these problems, and can
>>> spend our precious time with doing bioscientific research on the animals
>>> we are working on".
>>> 
>>> Basically I belong to those who do not know Latin, and who do not know
>>> the meaning of flava. Names have always been just names to me, I just
>>> never have been interested in what flava means. I can understand that
>>> others, in particular botanists who had to publish Latin diagnoses until
>>> recently, find some help in the meaning of such names. This belongs to
>>> the field of personal choices and preferences. It is nothing where I
>>> could say that the entire zoological community would unanimously approve
>>> any statement in this concern. Some will find Latin helpful, others not.
>>> 
>>> We are trying to improve the Code, to facilitate its reading and the
>>> application of nomenclatural rules - on the other hand, in the
>>> Commission we are working on the base of majority decisions. At the end
>>> I might have to execute some decisions that I would personally consider
>>> being in conflict with the basic task, which is to facilitate the
>>> application of nomenclatural rules, and making the Code robust for a
>>> zoological community in the future. But if the majority vote is to have
>>> the Code mainly for those who find Latin helpful, and not for the
>>> others, I will have to execute that.
>>> 
>>> Adam and Doug made some excellent points that would allow us to advance
>>> a few steps ahead.
>>> I currently do not see that those who argue that gender agreement should
>>> just be maintained in the encrusted system we currently have, would
>>> contribute much to a solution of the problem. They did not 30 years ago,
>>> and I would not expect a different result now.
>>> 
>>> And I note another thing: The one side tries repeatedly to find
>>> compromises, the other side does not try to find compromise solutions.
>>> 
>>> Adam's suggestion to work with prevailing usage could eventually be
>>> implemented in the Code. Currently prevailing usage only works for
>>> spelling issues (Arts. 33.2.3.1 and 33.3.1), and it is unclear under
>>> which conditions the term is precisely applicable.
>>> It could be applied for species-group name endings (endings could be
>>> fixed by this method), and the conditions could be fixed.
>>> The conditions will have to be fixed anyway. Fixing a spelling as in
>>> prevailing usage would become a nomenclatural act, to be published, with
>>> 25 works to be cited like in Art. 23.9.2 which works quite successfully,
>>> and the proportion of prevailing usage could be required as having to be
>>> higher than some 80 or 90 %. Such a regulation would replace Arts.
>>> 33.2.3.1 and 33.3.1.
>>> This could not be done with the ending (if a species was located in the
>>> same genus for the last 80 years it would always have had the same
>>> ending), but something similar could be invented. An author who placed a
>>> species-group name into a genus of different gender could have the
>>> option to fix the ending as undeclineable, in an act somehow similar to
>>> Art. 70.3.
>>> 
>>> Basic line: Adam's proposals could be implemented in Code-5.
>>> 
>>> Doug made some suggestions that could change workflows and release
>>> taxonomists from having to consult the Code for a guideline how to
>>> determine genders and declineability of specific names. They could just
>>> either consult a published list (with free access), or they could
>>> consult a scientific body, a group of people who would provide correct
>>> answers within a few days or weeks.
>>> 
>>> Doug suggested to align Art. 31.2.2 with this approach. This could be
>>> implemented - given that such a list would be established and placed
>>> permanently at the users' disposal, with a permanent financial supply
>>> that would allow to modify entries. I would prefer the list under such
>>> conditions going online first, and then changing the Code.
>>> 
>>> Determining a gender of a genus-group name could be easier. A body of
>>> experts could to the job, and in the Code we would just state that for
>>> the gender this body is to be consulted. Also here, before we modify the
>>> Code we would have to establish such a body and see if it works.
>>> 
>>> Basic line: I currently see no option to propose regulations in a
>>> revised Code that would be in line with Dougs (otherwise excellent)
>>> proposals. This would require some preconditions.
>>> 
>>> One final point: We are talking about zoological nomenclature. We should
>>> keep in mind that in the gender debate we are only talking about
>>> non-lepidopteran nomenclature. This comprises only 90 % of zoology.
>>> I have been advocating to integrate the remaining 10 % of zoologists
>>> inside the frame we are providing, but I currently see no majority
>>> trends that would support such a move. As the head of the Code-5
>>> Committee I can only follow the majority vote, which is currently facing
>>> an approach that retains the lepidopteran tradition outside the frame.
>>> Adam is trying to integrate lepidopterology into the Code's frame.
>>> My personal preference would be that lepidopteran nomenclature in the
>>> future would follow a fixed written frame in terms of gender agreement.
>>> 
>>> Francisco
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
>>> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>> 
>> My books:
>> 
>> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
>> Raton FL. 2017.
>> 
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250546050%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lGmAI9ZEdlGpqL7yfrlByhKr3U4UMzL7WJXHsxRtH7w%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250546050%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lGmAI9ZEdlGpqL7yfrlByhKr3U4UMzL7WJXHsxRtH7w%3D&reserved=0>
>> 
>> 
>> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
>> Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250546050%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Oqh0YP7Beby4wfTPGN6QocqKBBfyQ0VSGOLxY0sUpxQ%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250546050%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Oqh0YP7Beby4wfTPGN6QocqKBBfyQ0VSGOLxY0sUpxQ%3D&reserved=0>
>> 
>> 
>> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
>> Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250546050%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fXy2tbAJRT426lRtzo1O0m6jL5sVO71dNUfh6luAsL4%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250702324%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=M5GCyvVKkIGS4vy7IQI2yELpf8epMV9t245ikrwm4hk%3D&reserved=0>
>> 
>> 
>> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
>> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250702324%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=coOswLCjdOqMBFT2rjqDxUbnZih10KRV%2Byl8rCJvMKw%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250702324%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=coOswLCjdOqMBFT2rjqDxUbnZih10KRV%2Byl8rCJvMKw%3D&reserved=0>
>> <
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250702324%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EarGsOgcm2svuUHNDF8dqpYmqKSs%2Fi9eFXRK1gfI%2B48%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C09666ca9bdea4b30ed4d08db7e8fc77d%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242928250702324%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EarGsOgcm2svuUHNDF8dqpYmqKSs%2Fi9eFXRK1gfI%2B48%3D&reserved=0>
>>> 
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>> 
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
>> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>> 
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.