Taxacom: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug Yanega many proposals to this list)

Thu Jul 6 02:00:30 CDT 2023

No, I don't want them to learn - if *they *want to learn, I'm giving a tip.
Most of my students find that learning the meaning of a name is a help in
remembering it. Eventually they learn that '-folia' refers to the leaf,
'-flora' to the flower, that 'Bentham' was a famous botanist,  etc.

On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:43 PM George Beccaloni <g.beccaloni at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Sorry, but I don't buy your argument. So you want all biologists,
> butterfly collectors, bird watchers etc etc to learn "a bit of basic Greek
> and Latin vocabulary." and understand gender agreement! That isn't going to
> ever happen.
>
> George
>
> ****************************************************************************
> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
>
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>
> ****************************************************************************
>
>
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 at 07:37, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 'Surely the ICZN should be mindful of satisfying the actual users of
>> scientific names, rather than pandering to outdated tradition?'
>>     While many of the traditional names (and morphological terms) are old
>> they are not outdated - we use them every day. The easiest way of dealing
>> with the huge number, which can be overwhelming for a beginner,  is
>> learning a bit of basic Greek and Latin vocabulary.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:09 PM George Beccaloni via Taxacom <
>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Thomas,
>>>
>>> I agree with your students! I simply memorise the currently accepted
>>> name -
>>> and I am sure that's what most people do. Most users of names (scientists
>>> who are not taxonomists and the public) know little if anything about the
>>> Code and gender agreement. My belief (which could easily be tested with a
>>> survey of such users) is that many grudgingly accept that species are
>>> sometimes moved to new genera, but most are bewildered when the spellings
>>> of species-group names are also altered. If the spellings were fixed this
>>> would benefit the majority of users of scientific names. Surely the ICZN
>>> should be mindful of satisfying the actual users of scientific names,
>>> rather than pandering to outdated tradition?
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****************************************************************************
>>> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
>>> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
>>>
>>> Wallace Correspondence Project: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528680013%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2G4aTYtopz2lBYN9DPbFW4%2F8A9hQbD%2BBCf1cUjvvIbE%3D&reserved=0
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>>>
>>> ****************************************************************************
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 at 01:10, Thomas Pape via Taxacom <
>>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > >>> gender agreement is very useful indeed ... as it makes the names so
>>> > much easier to remember [Michael Heads]
>>> > This is an argument often brought up, and it would be interesting to
>>> see a
>>> > formal testing.
>>> > Over the last five years I have been asking PhD-students and postdocs
>>> > passing through my museum if they feel that gender agreement helps them
>>> > remember names. They invariably said no. That is not a formal test,
>>> but it
>>> > shows that not everybody agrees about this argument, and it may even
>>> > indicate that gender agreement might be helpful mostly to those with
>>> some
>>> > knowledge of Latin.
>>> >
>>> > >>> revert to original spellings ... would be the absolute biggest
>>> public
>>> > relations nightmare we could ever ask for [Doug Yanega]
>>> > This is to me the most important issue in the gender agreement debate.
>>> > Changing, for example, "Bombus lapidarius" into "Bombus lapidaria"
>>> would
>>> > probably meet resistance, but I am not sure it would be of nightmarish
>>> > proportions. Lepisma, the genus of the common silverfish, was ruled to
>>> be
>>> > of neuter gender in 2018, but most papers published on silverfish since
>>> > then have been using "Lepisma saccharina". We will probably see a
>>> gradual
>>> > increase in the use of "Lepisma saccharinum" over the years, and in a
>>> few
>>> > decades this will be the prevailing spelling. And should gender
>>> agreement
>>> > be abandoned, we will go back to the original "Lepisma saccharina".
>>> >
>>> > /Thomas
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Douglas
>>> Yanega
>>> > via Taxacom
>>> > Sent: 6. juli 2023 00:18
>>> > To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>>> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug Yanega
>>> > many proposals to this list)
>>> >
>>> > On 7/5/23 1:54 PM, John Noyes wrote:
>>> > > Hi Doug,
>>> > >
>>> > > Fair enough, but you cannot get away from the argument that gender
>>> > > agreement is just simply 100% unnecessary. Forget about it being a
>>> > > waste of time. If we all worked on the premise that all genera have
>>> no
>>> > > gender then it would make life a whole lot easier. Like many people I
>>> > > definitely prefer the original spelling.
>>> >
>>> > And you work, by and large, with species names that rarely enter the
>>> > non-taxonomic literature. In contrast, using a few other hymenopteran
>>> > genera as examples, consider that many of the most common bumblebee
>>> species
>>> > in the world, and many of the most common ants, and many of the most
>>> common
>>> > paper wasps, would all suddenly have to change spellings because they
>>> have
>>> > been in masculine genera for over 100 years, but their original
>>> Linnaean or
>>> > Fabrician genera were feminine (e.g., Apis, Formica, and Vespa). The
>>> many
>>> > people - including laypeople - who are familiar with common European
>>> > species like Bombus lapidarius, Camponotus herculeanus, and Polistes
>>> > gallicus wouldn't be happy *at all*.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The best estimate is that around 1/6th of the most well-known animal
>>> > species in the world would have to change their spellings if we revert
>>> to
>>> > original spellings (excluding butterflies). That would be the absolute
>>> > biggest public relations nightmare we could ever ask for. If you think
>>> the
>>> > furor over "offensive names" is bad, just imagine how much worse the
>>> public
>>> > outcry would be if we told everyone that 1/6th of the animal species
>>> they
>>> > know suddenly have different scientific names.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Maybe, if you worked on a group in the public awareness, you might
>>> feel a
>>> > little differently about the matter.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > That way it would be completely objective and 100% stable.
>>> >
>>> > Changing 1/6th of all well-known names is *not* promoting stability.
>>> >
>>> > > However, if we had to determine the gender of every single genus it
>>> > > would probably take at least 3 weeks even using the system that you
>>> > > might be talking about because there is a good proportion of names
>>> > > that would have to be argued over (e.g. Trichogramma, one of the
>>> > > best-known genera in parasitic wasps which is currently used as
>>> neuter
>>> > > whereas it is actually of female gender; Tetramesa is another that
>>> > > springs to mind). Also, If we had to check the status (adjective,
>>> noun
>>> > > in apposition, etc.) of every species name it would take a good six
>>> > > months, even using the UCD. I think 6 months is minimum because very
>>> > > many names appear to be adjectival, but might just be nouns in
>>> > > apposition, e.g. flavus (a Roman general).
>>> > >
>>> > You seem to have missed the point I was making, that we don't want
>>> > anyone to "argue over" anything, ever again. Complying with gender
>>> > agreement can be trivially easy, and not involve any linguistic
>>> research
>>> > at all, *and no arguing*.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Case in point, under Article 30.1.2 of the Code, all names ending in
>>> > "-gramma" are neuter, because "γράμμα" (gramma) is a Greek neuter noun
>>> > transliterated directly into the Latin alphabet, and usage by the
>>> > coining author is explicitly not taken into consideration.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > "30.1.2. a genus-group name that is or ends in a Greek word
>>> > transliterated into Latin without other changes takes the gender given
>>> > for that word in standard Greek dictionaries"
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2F%25CE%25B3%25CF%2581%25CE%25AC%25CE%25BC%25CE%25BC%25CE%25B1&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528680013%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hVj6O6xxoOB3ScR9Zy7cZ%2BED69lNJ8szfNk%2F81x7MN0%3D&reserved=0
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > You appear instead to be looking at "γραμμή" (gramme), which is indeed
>>> > feminine, but does not transliterate as "gramma".
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2F%25CE%25B3%25CF%2581%25CE%25B1%25CE%25BC%25CE%25BC%25CE%25AE&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=8lV9p2CWN89D4VxeXeX8GglV9ytokxmdSJYEqZXfFm4%3D&reserved=0
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > In fact, there is a natively Latin noun "gramma" already, and it is
>>> also
>>> > neuter.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2Fgramma%23Latin&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=RVUVWSToi6V2sCXxXhjMDVePBT%2BxV0UKf1G7mZLYGwI%3D&reserved=0
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Accordingly, we appear to have an argument on our hands. However,
>>> > *arguing* is a waste of your time and my time. It would save everyone a
>>> > lot of annoyance if you were able to simply consult an official list of
>>> > genus names and suffixes, where it says "-gramma" is always neuter and
>>> > "-gramme" is always feminine. *Then there is no more argument*. Same
>>> for
>>> > declaring that names like "flavus" are always adjectival, even if
>>> > someone, somewhere, used them as a noun. If we try hard enough, can we
>>> > dig up obscure references that use nouns as adjectives, or adjectives
>>> as
>>> > nouns? Maybe we can, but linguistic research is *not our job*.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > No taxonomist should *ever* have to do linguistic research again; we
>>> CAN
>>> > eliminate that, by having lists, and still keep gender agreement
>>> > completely intact as a practice. All of the alternatives to official
>>> > lists are much worse, including the status quo.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Sincerely,
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology       Entomology Research Museum
>>> > Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
>>> > phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
>>> >               https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffaculty.ucr.edu%2F~heraty%2Fyanega.html&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uiA9QEkOIKxh9LbfQeu8SHrR7WQXUAZZ7T6zZOHQn84%3D&reserved=0
>>> >    "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
>>> >          is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Taxacom Mailing List
>>> >
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>>> >
>>> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration
>>> for
>>> > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration
>>> for
>>> > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>>
>>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
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>>>
>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
>>> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>>
>> My books:
>>
>> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC,
>> Boca Raton FL. 2017.
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=B9jfnk2FXh9eXbM5EShqHPM%2Bszk2P7aqZPmzfX6EHos%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
>> University Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yung8daNVezrxjCt8uAHg6NVQdKVbU7U1xFr1uuZv7Y%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
>> Press, Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=532FL1U98w6DkW0aoz5yF%2B9wNSYQZYvhizNZQNtvO1w%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University
>> Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SzzJuGyy3kNA5%2FHZDEqC95Q9LROzR0fPKiDrFCxR6tY%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=tKIKum%2BfEfPf46TfbiQNXrqgAKEHb0OrV7Jc6ptv0Wc%3D&reserved=0>
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-- 
Dunedin, New Zealand.

My books:

*Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
Raton FL. 2017.
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=B9jfnk2FXh9eXbM5EShqHPM%2Bszk2P7aqZPmzfX6EHos%3D&reserved=0

*Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yung8daNVezrxjCt8uAHg6NVQdKVbU7U1xFr1uuZv7Y%3D&reserved=0

*Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=532FL1U98w6DkW0aoz5yF%2B9wNSYQZYvhizNZQNtvO1w%3D&reserved=0

*Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SzzJuGyy3kNA5%2FHZDEqC95Q9LROzR0fPKiDrFCxR6tY%3D&reserved=0
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C55b9b071e4c74f23129a08db7deeb88e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638242236528836234%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=tKIKum%2BfEfPf46TfbiQNXrqgAKEHb0OrV7Jc6ptv0Wc%3D&reserved=0>