Taxacom: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug Yanega many proposals to this list)

Wed Jul 5 16:16:39 CDT 2023

yes, of course gender agreement is unnecessary in theory - we could just
use arbitrary strings of letters. But gender agreement is very useful
indeed for a practical reason as it makes the names so much easier to
remember.  Is it Coprosma foetidissima or foetidissimum? Well, I already
know Coprosma parviflora, lucida, robusta and tenuifolia, so it must be
foetidissima.

On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 8:55 AM John Noyes via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
wrote:

> Hi Doug,
>
> Fair enough, but you cannot get away from the argument that gender
> agreement is just simply 100% unnecessary. Forget about it being a waste of
> time. If we all worked on the premise that all genera have no gender then
> it would make life a whole lot easier. Like many people I definitely prefer
> the original spelling. That way it would be completely objective and 100%
> stable. I have done my dose of Latin and ancient Greek and modern Greek
> (forgotten most it now, but I do know how to use a dictionary) published
> more new generic and species names than I care to remember and designed and
> populated one of the best taxonomic databases in the world. Yes, going back
> to check the original spellings of all species names would take some time.
> If I had to check all the original spellings of all the species names ever
> used in Chalcidoidea (about 35,000) it would probably take 10 working weeks
> and add in a further 1.5 working weeks for all the generic names. I am in a
> good place because I have alread
>  y done that, but if I had to do it again I would be starting off with
> probably the best organised taxonomic database in the world because every
> name is directly linked to a PDF of the original article where it was made
> available. However, if we had to determine the gender of every single genus
> it would probably take at least 3 weeks even using the system that you
> might be talking about because there is a good proportion of names that
> would have to be argued over (e.g. Trichogramma, one of the best-known
> genera in parasitic wasps which is currently used as neuter whereas it is
> actually of female gender; Tetramesa is another that springs to mind).
> Also, If we had to check the status (adjective, noun in apposition, etc.)
> of every species name it would take a good six months, even using the UCD.
> I think 6 months is minimum because very many names appear to be
> adjectival, but might just be nouns in apposition, e.g. flavus (a Roman
> general).
>
> Just as an extra note to those that find latin names useful because it
> helps them to remember what an organism looks like. I have exactly the
> opposite experience. Consider a genus where the first known species
> described is all yellow and is described as flavus. After a 100 years or so
> there are 300 species known in that genus that are also yellow. Also, a
> species described as bangaloriensis but the actual origin of that species
> is probably somewhere in Latin America. And so on  . . . .
>
> Anyway, it has been an interesting discussion. However, I expect that we
> shall still be using gender agreement in 100 years time because it is
> traditional and tradition is always difficult to break away from. I find
> that a very strange thought because taxonomy has really progressed in leaps
> and bounds over the last few years yet one of the tools of taxonomy has
> remained firmly stuck in the 18th century.  I think that gender agreement
> is totally unnecessary and without it we could probably hugely simplify the
> Code and get rid of a great chunk of it and we would not even have to look
> up any official list every time we described a new species or put a species
> name in a new combination, etc.
>
> By the way, my first language also has gender agreement, but even that I
> have forgotten over the past 60 years or so.
>
> Just my ha'penneth worth.
>
> John
>
> Dr John S. Noyes
> Scientific Associate
> Insects Division
> Natural History Museum
> South Kensington
> London SW7 5BD
> UK
>
> Everything you wanted to know about Chalcidoidea (Universal Chalcidoidea
> Database):
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhm.ac.uk%2Four-science%2Fdata%2Fchalcidoids%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca7cb9c2033bf4e7bce5d08db7d9d2889%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241886464145777%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AWpOfeeCqi4Tp5xXPIE5XeDS1g15qfUyj7Qk%2FwhT2RY%3D&reserved=0<
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhm.ac.uk%2Four-science%2Fdata%2Fchalcidoids%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca7cb9c2033bf4e7bce5d08db7d9d2889%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241886464145777%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uHRQErQThdS8oMlIW6vSAC9tBefa9FeXCiHnMNlxeTs%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Taxonomic Monographs on Neotropical Hymenoptera
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhm.ac.uk%2Four-science%2Four-work%2Fbiodiversity%2Ftaxonomic-monographs-on-neotropical-hymenoptera.html&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca7cb9c2033bf4e7bce5d08db7d9d2889%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638241886464145777%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BHMqUT85x70sYvFdlhtpnK3Hg8B%2F9HeZSf7qhs87XTU%3D&reserved=0
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of Douglas Yanega
> via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Sent: 05 July 2023 19:28
> To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug Yanega
> many proposals to this list)
>
> On 7/4/23 2:04 PM, George Beccaloni via Taxacom wrote:
> > Hi Jose,
> >
> > My comment about it being a massive waste of effort was about the gender
> > agreement part of the list. Someone, Doug it seems, needs to spend years
> > determining the genders of all the genus-group names - which could IMHO
> > have been better spent on doing other things.
>
> Briefly: it only takes years if you are doing it in your spare time,
> rather than as a primary focus. As an exercise, I determined the genders
> of well over 5000 genera a few days ago, *in less than an hour*. How?
> Because the Code mandates, in Articles 30.1.1, 30.1.2, and 30.1.3, that
> names, if they are or end in a Latin or latinized Greek word, MUST match
> the gender given in Latin and Greek dictionaries - overriding any and
> all statements by the original author, or subsequent usage, and based
> ONLY upon the treatment of those words/suffixes in dictionaries. Article
> 30.1.4.3 is similar: a genus ending in "-ops" is always masculine.
>
> This makes it possible to assign genders to genus names for the
> overwhelming majority of all published names with access to (1) a
> digital list of genus names, and (2) a comprehensive dictionary. *The
> original literature does not need to be consulted for most published
> names*.
>
> For example, names ending in "-ops" comprise approximately 0.5% of all
> genus names. If the list of all genus names in zoology is 400,000, then
> right there that's 2000 names checked off the list instantly. Names
> ending in "-opsis" are all feminine, and comprise another 0.7%, while
> "-cerus" is masculine and another 0.5%, and so forth, and so forth (just
> think of all the genera ending in "-saurus" and "-odon"). By the time
> you're done checking off the names for which gender assignment is
> mandatory and unambiguous, you've almost finished the entire job. This
> part of the task does *not* take years.
>
> The effort is asymptotic: it's the tail of the distribution, the names
> that *must* have the original description consulted (e.g., Articles
> 30.1.4, 30.1.4.4, and 30.2), that take time. That's where taxonomists
> have to expend scholarly effort.
>
> > Global catalogues of names
> > are (of course) of vital importance and I am pleased to say that I have
> > been doing my bit! Not only did I create the Cockroach Species File
> > (synonymic catalogue of all 'true'' cockroaches - unfinished of course)
>
> And that is an admirable and important scholarly effort, and *very*
> valuable. You can expect that everyone who works on Species Files of
> this sort will be acknowledged and eventually asked to contribute to any
> efforts at a master list of names. As Jose correctly noted, the best way
> forward is to get as much "bottom up" effort coordinated as possible,
> and then fill in gaps. The point is not that there is not work to be
> done, but that *if people have already done the work*, it only goes to
> waste if someone else repeats the exact same effort, and we want to
> avoid that. As much as we appear to disagree, I do truly hope that when
> the time comes, that you will be willing to share what you have
> accomplished with those of us trying to compile master lists. For that
> matter, if you are *presently* capable of providing a list of all the
> genus-rank names in Blattodea and their genders, we would be *very*
> grateful to receive that information and your permission to incorporate
> it, with acknowledgment, into the master list. That same request goes to
> any and all members of this mailing list in a similar position - the
> effort to compile the master list is in fact already under way.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --
> Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology       Entomology Research Museum
> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
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>          is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
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> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
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My books:

*Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
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*Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
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*Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
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*Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
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