Taxacom: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug Yanega many proposals to this list)

Tue Jul 4 11:57:49 CDT 2023

I think there have been good arguments put forward suggesting that time may be saved, rather than wasted, by keeping gender agreement.

Daniel

Sent from my iPhone

> On 4. Jul 2023, at 18:27, George Beccaloni via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hi Frank & Alberto,
> 
> I guess we will have to agree to disagree. No doubt nothing will change and
> gender agreement will continue to frustrate people and waste their time for
> evermore. What it boils down to is that a group of fuddy-duddy
> traditionalists like it because it is a tradition. Humans have many
> failings.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> George
> ****************************************************************************
> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
> 
> Wallace Correspondence Project: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C2df1790268d247495dd408db7cafd564%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638240869146001052%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Oy3q2PuP8U1IKjlKhU%2B343AO6DF9VgUm%2FLEkVf5W5Z8%3D&reserved=0
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> ****************************************************************************
> 
> 
>> On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 at 17:15, alberto ballerio <philharmostes at yahoo.it>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I guess that there are also some "very intelligent people" also among the
>> supporters of gender agreement, therefore the "intelligence" argument is
>> useless for the purposes of this debate.
>> 
>> Probably the reason you will never find a "scientific reason" is that
>> nomenclature is not science, it's a body of rules, i.e., a legal text,
>> hence it does not follow a scientific method, but it's a compromise between
>> logics and the contradictions of human nature, tradition and the need to
>> find some coeherence in it. Gender agreement is one of those rules and as
>> such it fits perfectly the system you criticize.
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> 
>> Alberto
>> 
>> Il martedì 4 luglio 2023 alle ore 17:44:43 CEST, George Beccaloni via
>> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> ha scritto:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Frank,
>> 
>> You didn't answer the question - i.e. what good scientific reasons are
>> there for such a system, which some very intelligent people who have
>> contributed to this discussion clearly find problematic. Just because you
>> don't isn't an adequate argument. It costs time and effort to implement and
>> maintain, so a cost-benefit analysis should be done. I believe the costs
>> far outweigh the benefits.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> George
>> 
>> ****************************************************************************
>> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
>> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
>> 
>> Wallace Correspondence Project: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C2df1790268d247495dd408db7cafd564%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638240869146157260%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AcSHSafN8Q18rk9sD9lltaC3xwFB4jmAhd%2BC%2F5BRDxw%3D&reserved=0
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>> 
>> ****************************************************************************
>> 
>> 
>>> On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 at 16:31, Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> George,
>>> You repeatedly neglected or didn't understand or brushed off the argument
>>> that with a very basic knowledge of Latin grammar you do not have to
>>> memorize the endings of adjectival specific names, because you just know
>>> them when you see the genus. This is true in most cases. This is a HUGE
>>> time saver. Not sure why you don't get it or don't accept it.
>>> And "Lepidopterists have never used it [gender agreement]" is wrong. The
>>> correct phrase is: Most lepidopterists have never used it.
>>> All the best, No one (Frank)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dr. Frank-Thorsten Krell
>>> 
>>> Senior Curator of Entomology, Editor-in-Chief
>>> Commissioner and Councillor, International Commission on Zoological
>>> Nomenclature
>>> Department of Zoology
>>> Denver Museum of Nature & Science
>>> 2001 Colorado Blvd
>>> Denver, Colorado 80205-5798, U.S.A.
>>> Frank.krell at dmns.org
>>> Phone 303.370.8244
>>> Fax 303.331.6492
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmns.org%2Fscience%2Fzoology%2Fstaff%2Ffrank-krell%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C2df1790268d247495dd408db7cafd564%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638240869146157260%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gPG9nAceB%2Fs5m7hvJq99s5GLiy53aJunot2%2FBRz2CSY%3D&reserved=0
>>> 
>>> Bugs: They’re bigger, they’re better, they’re buggier than ever! It’s all
>>> about precision flight, swarm intelligence and mind control in the world
>> of
>>> “Bugs," the exhibition. Marvel at their adaptive genius and see if you
>> can
>>> match their brilliance.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bugs: Son más grandes, mejores y más increíbles que nunca. En la
>>> exhibición "Bugs" todo gira en torno al vuelo de precisión, la
>> inteligencia
>>> en grupo y el control mental. ¡Descubre lo genios que son!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of George
>>> Beccaloni via Taxacom
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2023 9:15 AM
>>> To: Jose Fernandez-Triana <cnc.braconidae at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>>> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Single official lists of taxa (sensu Doug Yanega
>>> many proposals to this list)
>>> 
>>> What a monumental waste of time and effort that would be - at least for
>>> the purposes of gender agreement! No one has presented a good scientific
>>> argument in defence of gender agreement, so I hold by what I said
>> earlier -
>>> it is a useless waste of time! Lepidopterists have never used it, and
>> they
>>> are probably a lot happier for it. Just use the basionyms - that would
>>> result in a much less confusing and more stable system.
>>> 
>>> Best wishes,
>>> 
>>> George
>>> 
>>> 
>> ****************************************************************************
>>> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
>>> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>> ****************************************************************************
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 at 15:54, Jose Fernandez-Triana via Taxacom <
>>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>> 
>>>> [Sorry for the long email that follows]
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> What a long exchange of ideas over the past couple of weeks or so!
>>>> Even though at times it may look repetitive or tiring, I think this
>>>> exchange has been mostly valuable, as it is indeed important to hear
>>>> other criteria and see other perspectives (we have seen comments
>>>> coming from different sectors and degrees of specialization). I think
>>>> these exchanges are one of the main useful things of Taxacom.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One of the main components of this discussion has been the proposal of
>>>> having “master lists” of taxa. I copy below my signature the latest
>>>> email from Doug about that -but, to be fair, he has been proposing
>>>> that approach for a long time (at least 2019 as far as I can remember,
>>>> probably longer than that). And he has mentioned that several times in
>>>> this Taxacom list. I have to say that I fully agree with Doug’s
>>>> proposal, and have at times wondered why there is not more support for
>>>> that idea here. Instead, the discussion usually steers away towards
>>>> other topics and his proposal gets once and again “forgotten” among
>>>> the plethora of emails and discussions going into many tangents…
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I truly believe that such list (or lists) are indeed possible and
>>>> would probably be the best way to deal with the many problems that we
>>>> have been discussing here lately. What I think has been overlooked, or
>>>> at least not discussed with more detail is how to generate such lists.
>>>> Usually what I see here is the work from informatics or databasing
>>>> experts, trying to obtain and curate such information from many
>>>> sources, and I also see the efforts (wonderful! Do not get me wrong)
>>>> of isolated persons spending a considerable amount of their time
>>>> (mostly for free and out of love for what they do) gathering such data
>>> and preparing such lists on their own.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> But there has never been a concerted effort (at least that I am aware
>>>> of, but perhaps I am wrong!) to discuss how such list(s) could be
>>>> generated from bottom to top, so to speak, i.e., generated by the
>>>> community instead of done by the few brave “IT knights” that are
>>>> trying to do it now. Why do not we try to engage the wider taxonomic
>>>> community to work together on that? And “reward” them by way of
>>>> publications where such lists are initially presented, so that
>>>> everyone that participates “gains” something (instead of just appearing
>>> to be just contributing her/his info “for free”
>>>> to some IT wizard that would generate the list, as it is usually the
>>> case)?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> There are no real limitations to such an approach, if there would be a
>>>> will to do it. For example, scientific societies devoted to specific
>>>> taxa could decide to support more and advance such efforts. [I am
>>>> going to use Hymenoptera here to use myself as a Guinea pig in the
>>>> following exercise (I am the current president of the Hym. Society)].
>>>> So, let’s say that the International Society of Hymenopterists (ISH)
>>>> decides to publish lists of genera (and species, because a concerted
>>>> effort needs not to be limited only to genera gender agreement, it can
>>>> also be broadened to include many other things such as synonyms,
>>>> species lists, etc.). Like all of the hyper diverse insect orders, we
>>>> do not really know how many species are already described (let alone
>>>> how many undescribed… but that is another topic, so I digress there).
>>>> And we do not have lists of synonyms, gender of genera, and so on and
>>>> so forth for many Hymenoptera groups. But what if ISH members decide
>>>> to work together towards that goal? The work can be spread by
>>>> families, or any other, smaller grouping, such that work can be
>>>> manageable and papers can be produced as groups are completed. Such
>>>> publications can later be used by all of the databasers and IT
>>>> wizards, but the initial list gets credited to the taxonomists that
>>> worked preparing, checking and analyzing those lists. One only needs to
>>> identify potential “project leads”
>>>> for specific taxa (be it family X or even a large genus Y) and have as
>>>> many people interested with that taxa getting involved in the work
>>>> needed to prepare such lists (authorship of the papers would be
>>>> determined by the individual contribution of each author). Taxa that
>>>> are “orphan” (i.e., have no current  experts to work on that, or the
>>>> current experts are not interested, would remain undone, until the
>>>> time comes when someone would be willing to work on that. But at least
>>>> a good amount of taxa could be done in the meantime. [One different
>>>> problem is groups where there are different experts with competing
>>>> views and, unfortunately, sometimes contradictory or strongly in
>>>> disagreement… But, from what I have seen, that tends to be more common
>>>> in vertebrates than in larger groups such as invertebrates (although
>>>> no group is exempt from human disagreements and miseries, of course!
>>>> In any case, I will not touch in this email about how to solve those
>>>> potentially “difficult groups” to deal with when there are competing
>>>> or opposed experts (this could be discussed in a different email, if
>>> there is any interest in doing that)].
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> A few years ago I worked on a project like that, with a single
>>>> subfamily of Braconidae (around 3,000 described species). The work
>>>> involved a) one undergrad student, b) one technician, c) one
>>>> Ichneumonidae researcher, d) two Braconidae researchers, with the main
>>>> expertise on that taxon. At the end everyone got “rewarded” (perhaps
>>>> the better phrase would be “her/his work towards that list was
>>>> properly recognized”) and the paper, published in 2020 and over 1,000
>>>> pages long, has become the standard for names and other things related
>>>> to that subfamily (including the first time the gender for all genera
>>>> of that group where clearly and explicitly stated, and over
>>>> 300 new combinations were provided, etc.; see the link here:
>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzookeys.pensoft.net%2Farticle%2F39128%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C2df1790268d247495dd408db7cafd564%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638240869146157260%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Ike4DkNnfzw0t171bzod30HZTvoswFpguC8iakhejec%3D&reserved=0). [For what is worth, Doug
>>>> helped me A LOT to correct many of the gender problems we encountered
>>>> during that work, that is why I know he has been pushing for these
>>>> efforts for a long time].
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> There is no limitation to continue doing that for other Hymenoptera
>>>> taxa that are still pending or any other group. And, needless to say,
>>>> many other lists have been generated, both before and after my
>>>> example, and many of them are better than mine! Thus, I do not pretend
>>>> to have invented the wheel here, I only point to an example of
>>>> collaborative work done bottom to top and being able to deliver a list
>>>> that was then usable for the wider community - as it has been discussed
>>> here for the past few weeks.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Perhaps we could think about this approach, because then things would
>>>> be more manageable and both the taxonomic and wider scientific
>>>> community would accomplish more. We could indeed have our cake and eat
>>>> it, as long as we could agree on some minimum standards and
>>>> organization of the work to be done…
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> And I will stop here, thanks to anyone that was patient enough to read
>>>> up to this point!
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> 
>>>> Jose
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> José L. Fernández-Triana, Ph.D.
>>>> Research Scientist, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Canadian National
>>>> Collection of Insects (CNC)
>>>> 960 Carling Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0C6, CANADA
>>>> Phone: 613-759-1034. Email: jose.fernandez at agr.gc.ca Alternative
>>>> email: cnc.braconidae at gmail.com
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>>>> 
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>>> 
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>> 
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
>> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>> 
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.