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Taxacom: Latin

Richard Pyle deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
Sat Jul 1 14:52:55 CDT 2023 

I think such an article would be very valuable -- both in terms of properly framing the issue in the context of future editions of all Codes; but also so that whenever this issue comes up again in the future on Taxacom (or wherever), a simple link could be provided to the (open access!) publication.

However, in order to be legitimate, the strongest and most knowledgeable proponents on ALL sides (note: not just "both" sides, because there are more than two) need to be co-authors, and will need to collaborate.  This sort of thing has happened before in our community (see: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Fhow-a-scientific-spat-over-how-to-name-species-turned-into-a-big-plus-for-nature-138887&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdbeb786eafbd4ceabd5508db7a6cc6d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238381639402939%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zOp0fc51QdxWJwd%2FHCDDKyghiDcRtKMcPqrNf6kVjHg%3D&reserved=0), and I would say with an enormous degree of success.

Y'all know who you are, and you ought to touch-base with each other off-list to figure out how to proceed on this.

Aloha,
Rich

Richard L. Pyle, PhD
Senior Curator of Ichthyology | Director of XCoRE
Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum
1525 Bernice Street, Honolulu, HI 96817-2704
Office: (808) 848-4115;  Fax: (808) 847-8252
eMail: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
BishopMuseum.org
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of George
> Beccaloni via Taxacom
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 11:09 AM
> To: Dochterland <dochterland at telenet.be>
> Cc: Taxacom Mailinglist <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Latin
> 
> Dear Jan,
> 
> That is an excellent idea. However, I have no idea whether such an article has
> been done in the past, and even if one has, new and important points may have
> been raised which are absent from it. I would volunteer to write one (perhaps
> with others who are interested to be have input for and
> against) but am too busy for the foreseeable future to do so. Hopefully
> someone else may take it forward.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> George
> ****************************************************************
> ************
> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
> 
> Wallace Correspondence Project: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdbeb786eafbd4ceabd5508db7a6cc6d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238381639558690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UwcaVCGvBmw1jtsZQ4mbXdLui9UkoulsrgexGvcEqug%3D&reserved=0
> Wallace Memorial Fund: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallacefund.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdbeb786eafbd4ceabd5508db7a6cc6d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238381639558690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ePyAqfNYYWHithYLwGMbLiGdqINp9JlUlIsnINazhF0%3D&reserved=0
> ResearchGate: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Beccaloni-2&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdbeb786eafbd4ceabd5508db7a6cc6d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238381639558690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XsUsuSZJkPNn%2BDbEpxhJgTq1soRo4gHQNxIKc%2F7RagI%3D&reserved=0
> ****************************************************************
> ************
> 
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 at 18:47, Dochterland <dochterland at telenet.be> wrote:
> 
> > Dear all,
> >
> > In the beginning I feared this discussion on gender agreement would
> > lead to a lot of quarreling, but as a matter of fact the whole
> > discussion was balanced and raised interesting points. Someone should
> > write an article on this, if it has not already been done.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jan
> >
> > > Op 28 jun. 2023, om 17:30 heeft George Beccaloni via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> het volgende geschreven:
> > >
> > > Hi Doug,
> > >
> > > So you are advocating leaving gender agreement in the Code and not
> > allowing
> > > a vote on it... All you are proposing is to make it easier for
> > > people to genderise names... As I and others have argued, gender
> > > agreement is an outmoded practice which serves absolutely no USEFUL
> > > function. It makes a mockery of the concept of species-group names being
> unique identifiers.
> > > Reverting to the original spelling would be easy to do, and once it
> > > had been done, the spellings of the names would never, ever have to
> > > change -
> > to
> > > much rejoicing by many taxonomists and people involved in bioinformatics.
> > > At last we would have unique identifiers! At last, we wouldn't need
> > > to spend unnecessary time and effort recording the genders of names
> > > in our databases, and have the burden of recording future changes to
> > > them made
> > in
> > > the name of gender agreement!
> > >
> > > I fear that if there is opposition to such a relatively minor change
> > > to
> > the
> > > Code, that nothing more wide ranging and radical (like having one
> > > Code
> > for
> > > all of life) is ever likely to happen.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> >
> ****************************************************************
> ******
> > ******
> > > *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
> > > *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
> > >
> > > Wallace Correspondence Project:
> > > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdbeb786eafbd4ceabd5508db7a6cc6d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238381639558690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UwcaVCGvBmw1jtsZQ4mbXdLui9UkoulsrgexGvcEqug%3D&reserved=0
> > > Wallace Memorial Fund: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallacefund.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdbeb786eafbd4ceabd5508db7a6cc6d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238381639558690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ePyAqfNYYWHithYLwGMbLiGdqINp9JlUlIsnINazhF0%3D&reserved=0
> > > ResearchGate:
> > > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Beccaloni-2&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdbeb786eafbd4ceabd5508db7a6cc6d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238381639558690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XsUsuSZJkPNn%2BDbEpxhJgTq1soRo4gHQNxIKc%2F7RagI%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> >
> ****************************************************************
> ******
> > ******
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 at 16:09, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom <
> > > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 6/27/23 11:51 PM, Mark D. Scherz via Taxacom wrote:
> > >>> It should read ‘in principle, in most cases, if you have a good
> > >>> working knowledge of Latin declensions…’. George pointed out that
> > >>> this
> > knowledge
> > >> is
> > >>> not widespread. So far I have only seen numbers on the US here. In
> > >>> the
> > >> UK,
> > >>> less than 3% of students have Latin in school. In Germany, less
> > >>> than 5%
> > >> and
> > >>> declining. And these are countries with long traditions of
> > >>> classics;
> > most
> > >>> of the world has less than this. I’d be very interested to know
> > >>> the
> > stats
> > >>> on Latin teaching in India and China. The point being, this
> > >>> ability,
> > >> while
> > >>> achievable, is available to a privileged few.
> > >>>
> > >>> I prefer the up-front investment of time to discuss it here, if it
> > could
> > >>> potentially save time in the future.
> > >>
> > >> Then I'll reiterate what I've been advocating:
> > >>
> > >> We (the ICZN) leave the rules in place, but provide two things that
> > >> would *completely eliminate the need for anyone to learn or
> > >> understand Latin or Greek*:
> > >>
> > >> (1) We provide a single official list of all genus names and their
> > >> genders. Contrary to what others here have claimed, we do *already*
> > >> have an essentially complete list of genus names (ambiregnal, not
> > >> just zoology; see the IRMNG), and the genders are known for a
> > >> substantial number of them. Coordinating efforts to get the list
> > >> "fleshed out" are under way. This is pretty readily attainable.
> > >>
> > >> (2) We provide a single official list that explains which species
> > >> epithets are declinable adjectives and which ones are ambiguous.
> > >> Anything not on the list is treated as a noun, and never changes
> > >> spelling. This is a little trickier to organize, but should also be
> > >> attainable. For example, I've personally screened over 200,000
> > >> species-group names, which is over 10% of all zoological names -
> > >> and other researchers have done the same for their groups.
> > >>
> > >> Again, we agree that there is no justification for *compelling*
> > >> taxonomists to learn Latin or Greek, not because gender agreement
> > >> is an outdated practice or unnecessary, but because a taxonomist
> > >> does not need to know Latin or Greek to *look a name up in a list*.
> > >>
> > >> Would you support the implementation of such a system?
> > >>
> > >> Remember, we are aware that people don't like the status quo, and
> > >> we are also aware that completely reverting to original spellings
> > >> for all names is not an option. We want people to consider reasonable
> alternatives.
> > >>
> > >> Further, the only thing taxonomists are *actually* compelled to do
> > >> under the ICZN is to read the original description in the 8% of
> > >> cases that are ambiguous and fall under Article 31.2.2. Even that
> > >> 8% may ultimately be an overestimate, if we decide to follow the
> > >> example of the botanists and decide that certain ambiguous
> > >> terms/suffixes are going to be ALWAYS be treated arbitrarily as
> > >> nouns, even when they have some historical usage as adjectives (and
> > >> vice-versa, for certain names that we decide should ALWAYS be treated
> arbitrarily as adjectives, like the epithet "alba").
> > >> In fact, by creating an official list, we could *potentially*
> > >> eliminate Article 31.2.2 entirely, and have NO ambiguous names,
> > >> *and* eliminate the need to consult original descriptions.
> > >>
> > >> Peace,
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology       Entomology Research Museum
> > >> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
> > >> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
> > >>              https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffaculty.ucr.edu%2F~heraty%2Fyanega.html&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdbeb786eafbd4ceabd5508db7a6cc6d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238381639558690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MEHl4zyqelcnxluhyDJrOtt%2B%2FtAexOVttTKw2o%2F1YOU%3D&reserved=0
> > >>   "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
> > >>         is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Taxacom Mailing List
> > >>
> > >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu For
> > >> list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > >> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
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> > >> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdbeb786eafbd4ceabd5508db7a6cc6d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238381639558690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LOqEImeQCX%2BRiZaeDAADUyCtt1WCycg4PMZWfz3rUKY%3D&reserved=0
> > >>
> > >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring
> > >> alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdbeb786eafbd4ceabd5508db7a6cc6d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638238381639558690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LOqEImeQCX%2BRiZaeDAADUyCtt1WCycg4PMZWfz3rUKY%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration
> > > for
> > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >
> >
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> Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
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> 
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about
> 36 years, 1987-2023.

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