Taxacom: Renaming taxa on ethical grounds - Well done Scott Thomson, I agree with you 100%

Tue Jan 31 23:29:55 CST 2023

 No, I'm just saying that people can use whatever name they like out of a limited list of options.
    On Wednesday, 1 February 2023 at 06:08:22 pm NZDT, Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au> wrote:  

 #yiv8466889670 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}So Stephen,?
are you proposing that anyone can create a synonym for anything, meaning every organism can have a hundred or more "available names", because we can database the lot, and then people can pick and choose any of the synonyms on the list to use and just hope others check the same database first?
So we can have Broghammerus, Malayopython, Thorpeserpens, Wusterpython or any other name that takes your fancy to identify the reticulated python.
Wouldn't the jettisoning of the rules of priority and homonymy be an ICZN code wrecker and cause chaos?

Raymond HoserFrom: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2023 3:29 PM
To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>; Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Renaming taxa on ethical grounds - Well done Scott Thomson, I agree with you 100%?I suspect that Scott is against "cancel culture" renaming, while at the same time staying with the opinion that some people's proposed new names are not rigorous enough to be considered part of the scientific record, or whatever. These are two different issues. However, stability may be threatened by renaming names in the latter category, even though some taxonomists would claim that the replaced names never really existed in the first place. My own view is that stability is no longer as big a deal as it was before the age of the internet. All we need are authoritative websites which keep track of synonymy (i.e., all the different names for the same taxon) and then people can use whichever name they like from the list of synonyms.
Stephen
On Wednesday, 1 February 2023 at 05:17:53 pm NZDT, Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au> wrote:

<!--#yiv8466889670 #yiv8466889670x_yiv9504474757 p {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->Scott, 

Wollumbinia has nothing to do with me, so can I take it as given, that you will be renouncing your bit of taxonomic vandalism in favour of the objective senior synonym Wollumbinia?
Yours sincerely
Raymond HoserFrom: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2023 12:14 PM
To: Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>; Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Renaming taxa on ethical grounds - Well done Scott Thomson, I agree with you 100%?That is called "false equivalency" Ray. Issues with your names have nothing to do with the subject of this thread. It is not about you which is probably why you agree with me on this. Manipulating discussion to centre it on you does not legitimise your view of what the ICZN represents.
Cheers Scott

Em ter., 31 de jan. de 2023 ?s 20:40, Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au> escreveu:

Scott Thomson, 

I am stunned and happy to see your dramatic reversal of position from that you recently took with regards to the attempt to change about 2000 scientific names via the Kaiser et al. (better known as Wuster et al.) document, via multiple submissions to the ICZN (including Rhodin et al) of which you supported, which fortunately the ICZN had the good sense to knock out.I assume this also means you will now renounce your support for Wuster, Kaiser and Peter Uetz ERAZING over 1000 names from their allegedly complete "Reptile Database" last year because they had been proposed by Russians. and for that matter, now I am sure you will finally renounce your name Myuchelys, in favour of the correct ICZN senior name (objective senior synonym), Wollumbinia, even if Richard Wells, who named the genus is an evil fire-breathing devil as you make out.Lets all be thankful for example that the eminent herpetologist Edward Drinker Cope was not an evil racist. After all, he named many hundreds of reptiles in the 1800's and it'd be horrible if they all had Wuster gang names put on them instead on that basis.And I am sure you would not agree with the mooted renaming of the numerous reptiles named in honour of Bill Branch and Don Broadley, both of whom besides dabbling in reptiles, attained notoriety for procuring little black boys for dabbling in sex.
Stability of names for scientific nomenclature is definitely more important, than erasing patronyms of child sex abusers.
I agree with you!Please be assured that myself and many others agree that the ICZN Code should not be hijacked and debased by your mates, Wuster, Kaiser and others who will rename taxa at will, and as required rewrite history to ensure that the reputation of the person whose name authority is to be stolen, is so bad as to justify the end.This will of course be especially easy if you ?and your mates continue to control sites like Wikipedia, wikispecies, Inaturalist and the like and rewrite the factual record as you see fit, including for example the numerous false claims on the Wikipedia pages about myself.??
YOURS FAITHFULLY
RAYMOND HOSER
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of Scott Thomson via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2023 10:04 AM
To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Renaming taxa on ethical grounds?I also am against the renaming of taxa for these types of reasons, largely
for the reasons stated and implied by the authors of the paper. We
nomenclatural taxonomists may like to get into the deeper meaning of names
and where they come from, most people actually do not care. All they want
is a name they can use for a taxon, which is stable and unchanging if
possible and this includes the combination. If our work on list governance
shows one thing is that stability of usage is the number one concern across
the spectrum of end users of taxonomy. I am in general no fan of patronyms
though I have done it twice, so obviously it's not something I have set in
stone, more something I avoid if I can, it is also just personal
preference. The vast majority of Patronyms the general user of the names do
not care or even likely know who the taxon was named after (will depend on
how famous the person was),it is not important to the day to day usage of
names for taxa. So my view is let them be for the sake of stability,
changing the names causes more harm than good,particularly for long
standing and well used names. There is no value or point to this argument
and it just wastes time and resources and creates confusion. That is not
stability.

Cheers Scott

Em sex., 27 de jan. de 2023 ?s 02:30, Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> escreveu:

>? I am 100% against the renaming of taxa for "cancel culture" reasons.
> However, at the end of the day, anybody can use whatever name that they
> like for a taxon and it doesn't really matter, provided that we keep track
> of all the names that apply to that taxon. So, in a way, "cancel culture"
> in taxonomy is self-defeating: Sure, you can suppress the validity of a
> name that is deemed somehow "inappropriate", but you still have to keep the
> name going in the literature as a synonym, so as to keep track of previous
> published data about the taxon. At this point I laugh and ask, how does
> relegation to synonymy really "cancel" anything? If there was a trumpi, for
> example, it is here to stay. whether as valid or as a synonym. This also
> raises the point that inappropriateness is subjective. Republicans will
> continue to use trumpi as valid, while democrats will relegate it into
> synonymy! Herein lies the road to taxonomic instability, but, as I said, it
> doesn't really matter. The main thing is sim
>? ply to keep track of all names for a given taxon, regardless of which one
> is treated as valid or preferred. A whole lot of fuss about nothing!
> Stephen
>???? On Friday, 27 January 2023 at 05:30:21 pm NZDT, John Grehan via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
>? The following article was just brought to my attention. Anyone interested
> can get a copy at
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F367305748_Renaming_taxa_on_ethical_grounds_threatens_nomenclatural_stability_and_scientific_communication&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cfa4d0348c6ba4c6783c208db04155d84%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638108262073431386%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iaAb0x6OCpjehsNMBhcDwMxCg4UcaOtuNKmiAYv%2BT%2B4%3D&reserved=0
>
> Renaming taxa on ethical grounds threatens nomenclatural stability and
> scientific communication
> January 2023Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society
> DOI: 10.1093/zoolinnean/zlac107
> --
>
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-- 
Scott Thomson

Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
Petr?polis, Manaus
State of Amazonas, 69055-010
Brasil

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