Taxacom: =?utf-8?q?The_nomen_Anura_Dum=C3=A9ril=2C_1805_and_other?= =?utf-8?q?_considerations_about_class-series_nomina?=

Thu Feb 23 17:17:39 CST 2023

Dear all,

The question of the authorship of the nomen Anura, as well as of all other
class-series nomina of Amphibia, has been the matter of numerous
publications. Rather than, as often on Taxacom, trying to ?reinvent the
wheel?, it would be useful to read them, not only to look at their
statements and synonymies, but to read and compare their* rationales*. What
follows is a summary of the main ideas in this domain.

(1) The Code recognises 3 ?groups of names? (in its English version) or
?levels of names? (in its French version). Both terms are problematic: in
the taxonomic literature, ?species-group? or ?genus-group? designate
taxonomic, not nomenclatural, concepts, so their use for a nomenclatural
concept is confusing; the so-called ?levels of names? include in fact
several levels (ranks), which is also confusing. It is better to replace
both expressions by that of ?nominal-series?: species-, genus- and
family-series.

(2) There is a fourth nominal-series, the class-series, not recognised as
such in the Code although it mentions these nomina in its Article 1.2.2.

(3) Although it mentions these nomina, the Code provides only little
information on them. This concerns only the first of the three ?floors? of
the nomenclatural process (see e.g. Bionomina, 2011, 2: 1-104),
*availability*, but nothing is said about the second (*allocation*) and the
third (*validity and correctness*). This is a source of nomenclatural
chaos, as every author feels free to use his/her ?opinion? or ?taste? in
this respect. We need rules, or criteria, or at least an explicit
rationale, in this respect.

(4) Regarding the taxonomic allocation of class-series nomina and their
date and authorship, two possibilities exist: using an *ostensional* system
(through onomatophores or nomen-bearers) like for the three nominal-series
of the Code, or using an *intensional* system (through verbal definitions
of taxa) like in the Phylocode. To be compatible with all the other rules
of the Code, the first one should be chosen. Many suggestions have been
made in this respect in the literature (see Zoosystema, 2005, 27: 365-426
and 2006, 28: 165-258). In my opinion, three only of these proposals are
consistent enough to be seriously considered: [1] the Duplostensional
Nomenclatural System or DONS (Zoosystema, 2006, 28: 165-258; Dumerilia,
2015, 5: 1-108; Bionomina, 2020, 19: 1-56 to 2021, 21: 84-110; Megataxa,
2021, 5: 1-738); [2] the Circumscriptional System of Kluge (Bionomina,
2010, 1: 15-55); [3] the system of Alonso-Zarazaga (Bulletin of zoological
Nomenclature, 2005, 62: 189-199). I have shown in detail (Zootaxa, 2006,
1337: 1-37 and 2008, 1950: 51-56; Bionomina, 2011, 2-104) why the latter
two systems cannot be supported: [2] because it is a mixture of ostensional
and intensional systems and for various other reasons; [3] because it
proposes to merge the family-series and the genus-series of nomina and
would thus remove from zoological nomenclature all class-series nomina
which are not based on genus-series nomina (arhizonyms), like Anura,
Mammalia, Coleoptera, Crustacea or Mollusca, to replace them by nomina
based on generic nomina, which would be a useless and highly confusing
?revolution?.

(5) Many authors in fact, arguing (wrongly) that the Code does not
recognise class-series nomina, follow no rationale at all for the
allocation and authorship of nomina, but their ?opinions? and ?tastes?,
which furthermore may vary according to the nomen considered and are thus
highly confusing. In amphibians, this is particularly the case of the
website Amphibian Species of the World (ASW), which mixes family- and
class-series nomina in its synonymies and has no explicit rationale for the
allocation, authorship and validity of class-series nomina. Blackburn &
Wake?s 2011 paper in Zootaxa just follows ASW in this respect and is not
more reliable.

(6) The distinction between family-series and class-series nomina, which is
clear nowadays, was not so at the beginnings of zootaxonomy. In some cases
it was clear, but in others it was not so. The distinction between both
categories of nomina requires to use criteria based on the structure of the
taxonomic hierarchy (based on ranks) in the work at stake (Bonn zoological
Bulletin, 2010, 57: 149-171; Dumerilia, 2015, 5: 1-108; Bionomina, 2020,
19: 1-56 to 2021, 21: 84-110; Megataxa, 2021, 5: 1-738). The name given to
a rank in the ancient texts is not relevant in this respect. For example,
the rank family was not used in Linnaeus (who used only the ranks class,
order, genus, species and variety; see Zootaxa, 2007, 1668: 81-106) and
other authors of that time. From Linnaeus (1758) to Latreille (1825), it
was used inconsistenly in the literature for taxa at various ranks in the
hierarchy, from below order to below genus, so its mention does not provide
any information on its nominal-series. Starting with Latreille (1825,
Familles naturelles du r?gne animal), it began progressively (but not
immediately) to stabilise at a rank below order and above genus. A similar
process concerned later the rank tribe. *All* the families in Dum?ril
(1805) do not correspond to families in our current acception, but are
clearly class-series taxa. The site ASW ignores our comments in this
respect and sticks to several wrong statements (see Bionomina, 2019, 14:
1-68). Furthermore, it is fully inconsistent because it does not do the
same for nomina initially published under the name ?tribe?, although they
are in the same situation.

(7) The synonymies of nomina above the rank family in ASW are fully
unreliable and should not be used or copied. They should be replaced by the
very complete and careful synonymies provided in DOP (Dubois, Ohler &
Pyron, Megataxa, 2021, 5: 1-738). Concerning the name Anura, according to
the criteria of distinction between family- and class-series nomina, it is
clear that it consists in fact in two distinct nomina: Anura Dum?ril, 1805
in the class-series, valid nomen of the order of frogs (detailed synonymy
in page 621 of DOP) and Anoura Latreille, 1825 in the family-series
(detailed synonymy in page 565 of DOP), which is invalid being an
arhizonym. The fact that Dum?ril (1805) published Anura under the French
spelling Anoures does not make it unavailable (Kottelat, Zoosystema, 2001,
23:605-618; Kluge, 2010, Bionomina, 1: 15-55; Dubois, Dumerilia, 2015, 5:
26-27).

(8) For anybody interested in the supraspecific nomenclature of recent
amphibians, the monograph DOP (Megataxa 5), which gives a complete list of
all nomina above species published from 1758 to 2021, including nomina
nuda, should be consulted. This would avoid the nomenclatural errors of
many kinds that appear in the website ASW, some of which, that occur also
in the website Reptile Database, have escaped the attention of all authors
until recently (see Bionomina, 2022, 30: 1-82).

Best wishes,

Alain
____________________________________

Professeur ?m?rite Alain Dubois
Mus?um National d'Histoire Naturelle
Institut Syst?matique, Evolution, Biodiversit? (ISYEB) - UMR 7205
Reptiles & Amphibiens
CP 30
25 rue Cuvier
75005 Paris
France

Adresses e-mail: <sapo421 at gmail.com>, <adbionomina at gmail.com>, <
adubois at mnhn.fr>

Blogs personnels:
Sur Overblog: <lherbu.com>
Sur Mediapart: <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblogs.mediapart.fr%2Falaindubois-0%2Fblog&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799053471%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GwF2zAWR5BHcgQlkrH%2FExmF3l1MFlPU1mxzD4NN%2FFiY%3D&reserved=0>

President, Linz Zoocode Committee
Chief Editor, Bionomina
Nomenclature Editor, Zootaxa
____________________________________

?La culture ce n?est pas avoir le cerveau farci de dates, de noms ou de
chiffres, c?est la qualit? du jugement, l?exigence logique, l?app?tit de la
preuve, la notion de la complexit? des choses et de l?arduit? des
probl?mes. C?est l?habitude du doute, le discernement dans la m?fiance, la
modestie d?opinion, la patience d?ignorer, la certitude qu?on n?a jamais
tout le vrai en partage; c?est avoir l?esprit ferme sans l?avoir rigide,
c?est ?tre arm? contre le flou et aussi contre la fausse pr?cision, c?est
refuser tous les fanatismes et jusqu?? ceux qui s?autorisent de la raison;
c?est suspecter les dogmatismes officiels mais sans profit pour les
charlatans, c?est r?v?rer le g?nie mais sans en faire une idole, c?est
toujours pr?f?rer ce qui est ? ce qu?on pr?f?rerait qui f?t.?
(Jean Rostand, Le droit d??tre naturaliste, 1963).
____________________________________

Alain Dubois.* Jean** Rostand, un biologiste contre le nucl?aire.* Berg
international, 2012.
Alain Dubois & Annemarie Ohler. *Evolution, extinctions: le message des
grenouilles.* Le Pommier, 2010.
Alain Dubois, Annemarie Ohler & R. Alexander Pyron. *New concepts and
methods for phylogenetic taxonomy and nomenclature in zoology, exemplified
by a new ranked cladonomy of recent amphibians (Lissamphibia).* Megataxa,
Nr. 5, 2021.
__________________________________

Le jeu. 23 f?vr. 2023 ? 19:01, <taxacom-request at lists.ku.edu> a ?crit :

> Daily News from the Taxacom Mailing List
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Order Anura - correct authorship? (Tony Rees)
>    2. Re: Order Anura - correct authorship? (Tony Rees)
>    3. Re: Order Anura - correct authorship? (Stephen Thorpe)
>    4. Re: Order Anura - correct authorship? (Tony Rees)
>    5. Re: Nomenclator Botanicus (Steudel) (John McNeill)
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:31:40 +1100
> From: Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com>
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Order Anura - correct authorship?
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CABEjCKPR+YPpVqo18x7HtbU1T+yWUW10xO8gvo4j2VHWWyyhcA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Returning to the subject of my original post - The AMNH Amphibian Species
> of the World database, version 6.1 as at today, has this to say about
> "Anura" and apparently related names (subset of a very large number of
> names above family rank applicable to frogs). For some reason that I cannot
> imagine, the authors of this system decline to give an authorship for
> "Anura" as an accepted order. So, once again I throw this back to the
> community of Taxacom for any advice and assistance that may be available in
> selecting a preferred authorship for "Anura"...
> ----------------------
> *Anoures* Dum?ril, 1805, Zool. Analyt. Meth. Nat. Class. Anim.
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDumeril-1805-Zool.-Analyt.-Meth.-Nat.-Class.-Anim&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799053471%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EvnW%2FDovD8%2FgrxoHq3oBdS2kM3To%2BzRK3DjQl3pOTQU%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 91, 93. Unavailable family-group name for frogs within Dum?ril's order
> Batracii. Dubois, 2004, Alytes, 22
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDubois-2004-Alytes-22&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799053471%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kYWihFR0s9kT%2BdPNfe4sdXJuCw4A3fyuJTS%2BmJak2iM%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 1?14, regarded this as the original use of Anura, but Frost, Grant,
> Faivovich, Bain, Haas, Haddad, de S?, Channing, Wilkinson, Donnellan,
> Raxworthy, Campbell, Blotto, Moler, Drewes, Nussbaum, Lynch, Green, and
> Wheeler, 2006, Bull. Am. Mus. Nat. Hist., 297
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFrost-Grant-Faivovich-Bain-Haas-Haddad-de-Sa-Channing-Wilkinson-Donnellan-Raxworthy-Campbell-Blotto-Moler-Drewes-Nussbaum-Lynch-Green-and-Wheeler-2006-Bull.-Am.-Mus.-Nat.-Hist.-297&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799053471%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BTOTGD5FnR9E2QzKnNMzFAGfat5vN4cjH2PwYw41aJU%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 357, who beyond the fact that this is an *explicit* family-group name, saw
> no justification in recognizing non-Latin names in ranks not regulated by
> the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature. Dubois and Raffa?lli,
> 2012, Alytes, 28
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDubois-and-Raffaelli-2012-Alytes-28&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1LzDLASX2Vyn4hGZThNXwTM4J3%2BNcHkO3BWOpJvIT3M%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 86, and Fouquette and Dubois, 2014, Checklist N.A. Amph. Rept.
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFouquette-and-Dubois-2014-Checklist-N.A.-Amph.-Rept.-1-Amph&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XNhkeyxXT0ySC%2FgAE0q0DSqibwg5KJaQdhrl18jC8HQ%3D&reserved=0
> .>:
> 253, continued to argue for this being the oldest available name for the
> taxon composed of all frogs, avoiding Dumeril's own words that this is the
> "Famille. Anoures".
>
> *Anuri* Fischer von Waldheim, 1813, Zoognosia Tab. Synopt. Ill., Ed. 3, 1
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFischer-von-Waldheim-1813-Zoognosia-Tab.-Synopt.-Ill.-Ed.-3-1&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7n%2Bc3mnIdbZHgjzxIxThC0lPRATgXhcDjewmgFH%2Bx38%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 58. Unranked taxon (above family-group) for frogs. Identical in content to
> Fischer von Waldheim's Ecaudati. Presumably a reranking and latinization of
> Anoures Dum?ril, 1806, an unavailable family-group name.
>
> *Anuria* Rafinesque, 1815, Analyse Nat.
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FR%2FRafinesque-1815-Analyse-Nat&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mID1Pfp%2F9%2BFSDPH7fVo9n6%2BzRsmZQdpWZQxZE1kaf68%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 78. Suborder for frogs. Presumably a reranking and latinization of Anoures
> Dum?ril, 1806.
>
> *Anoura* Gray, 1825, Ann. Philos., London, Ser. 2, 10
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FG%2FGray-1825-Ann.-Philos.-London-Ser.-2-10&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mDtQ7SI3aLPUWjJXs9l7AwSGTD%2F2md5JF53Xf3%2FBdW4%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 213. Explicit order for all frogs, attributed to Dum?ril and considering
> Salientia Laurenti to be a synonym (although Laurenti's Salientia included
> *Proteus*). A reranking and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
>
> *Anura* Hogg, 1839, Mag. Nat. Hist., N.S., 3
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FH%2FHogg-1839-Mag.-Nat.-Hist.-N.S.-3&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0vD90YB7dh9DQugCzTKYyc2GrLfc88BME0AobYJHejc%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 270. Explicit order for frogs. Presumably an emendation of Anoura Gray,
> 1825, although possibly a reranking and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril,
> 1806.
>
> *Anoures* Dum?ril and Bibron, 1841, Erp. Gen., 8
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDumeril-and-Bibron-1841-Erp.-Gen.-8&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yR2utv12F0RTJ%2BonKKsi%2BVLYItuWYWgfU0mRah7T8UE%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> plate opposite page 53. Non-Latin suborder for frogs. Presumably a
> reranking of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
>
> *Anouri* Mayer, 1849, Verh. Naturhist. Ver. Preuss. Rheinlande, 6
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FM%2FMayer-1849-Verh.-Naturhist.-Ver.-Preuss.-Rheinlande-6&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s2Sr7cAC1DQHhsTGqlmaJJ%2FCkDfC3z%2FGLa4TySt8Brw%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 198. Suborder for frogs. Presumably a latinization of Anoures Dum?ril,
> 1806, or of Dum?ril and Bibron, 1841.
>
> *Anura* Lichtenstein and Martens, 1856, Nomencl. Rept. Amph. Mus. Zool.
> Berol.
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FL%2FLichtenstein-and-Martens-1856-Nomencl.-Rept.-Amph.-Mus.-Zool.-Berol&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FOX68xgRiTbYmk3mUeJWkUtdIEcHXAVcaD7cDb8ZgqM%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 36. Order for frogs. Presumably a subsequent usage of Anura Hogg, 1839.
>
> *Anura* Romer, 1945, Vert. Paleontol., Ed. 2
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FR%2FRomer-1945-Vert.-Paleontol.-Ed.-2&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0LieyCnbfAhXwfMUG%2Bwlb3NOBFaez4VzZ5jX%2FDo3rVY%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 592. Order of superorder Salientia to contain living frogs.
>
> *Anura* Ford and Cannatella, 1993, Herpetol. Monogr., 7
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFord-and-Cannatella-1993-Herpetol.-Monogr.-7&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DM9nLDfRphJUCoMTJutCJtsRrXteK3x5Qw8bL%2FhnaoE%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> 99. Group of frogs defined as the last common ancestor of living frogs and
> all of the descendants of that species.
> -------------------------
>
> - Tony
>
>
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 16:04, Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes Stephen, one could do that, with a certain amount of re-engineering
> > (not under my control any more in this case)... however 99%+ of the time
> > the "name+author+year" system does work (which is why it has been adopted
> > as the de facto standard in virtually all taxonomic data systems as well
> as
> > the taxonomic literature) - e.g. in the example given above, the
> crustacean
> > order is Decapoda Latreille, 1802 while the cephalopod order is Decapoda
> > Leach, 1818 (now Teuthoidea - or possibly Teuthida - Naef, 1916 (Teuthida
> > is accepted in ITIS at this time but not in WoRMS, more on that would be
> a
> > separate thread...)
> >
> > Go e.g. to ION/Zoological Record and you will find "name+author+year" as
> > de facto taxon identifiers, same in Neave, same in Global Names Index,
> same
> > in ITIS, same in GBIF, etc. etc. At least some attempt at standardization
> > in these matters is clearly helpful :) There are a few instances where
> such
> > a construct is not unique, where indeed some workarounds are required -
> > e.g. in my case I tend to use name|| ||authority, name|| ||authority||
> [2]
> > and so on, others may have their own preference...
> >
> > Regards - Tony
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 15:31, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> One could disambiguate homonyms in other ways, e.g. Decapoda (Crustacea)
> >> vs. Decapoda (Cephalopoda). What you actually need is a separate
> >> disambiguation field associated with each name in your database.
> Sometimes,
> >> you can disambiguate by author, sometimes by parent taxon or anything
> else
> >> that does the job.
> >> Stephen
> >>
> >> On Thursday, 23 February 2023 at 04:34:57 pm NZDT, Tony Rees <
> >> tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Stephen, once again I agree with you to a point, but then differ: for
> >> example, it is a fact that Blackburn & Wake, 2011 cite the order as
> Anura
> >> Fischer von Waldheim, 1813. So one could give (on WikiXXX if desired) a
> >> particular authorship "according to [wherever]"; and note any
> alternative
> >> views as published. Just my take of course. Sometimes it becomes
> important,
> >> for example according to my recollection there are 2 different orders
> >> Decapoda, one a Crustacean group in current use, the other something
> else
> >> (cephalopods? cannot remember), so once again authorship of the name in
> >> question is a desirable feature.
> >>
> >> Regards - Tony
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 12:52, Stephen Thorpe <
> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> The problem with putting your preferred authorship on names like Anura
> on
> >> Wikimedia is that your preferred authorship is just that and not an
> >> objective fact because there is no such thing as authorship for such
> names.
> >> It is a common misconception, but a misconception nonetheless. There
> are no
> >> codified rules to define the authorship of such names. Nothing to say
> that
> >> the authorship is the first author. Nothing to say that the work in
> which
> >> the name was published must be published according to the Code, etc.,
> etc.
> >> It is all just pointless dust in the wind.
> >> Stephen
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:33:54 +1100
> From: Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com>
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Order Anura - correct authorship?
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CABEjCKNVMdt_ztSNGAP1tUuM8NzK8j+wtbEbXUK6C5i5sGOLZg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> BTW if the above gets mangled by the Taxacom display software on account of
> the embedded hyperlinks, here is the same in plain text:
> -----------
> Anoures Dum?ril, 1805, Zool. Analyt. Meth. Nat. Class. Anim.: 91, 93.
> Unavailable family-group name for frogs within Dum?ril's order Batracii.
> Dubois, 2004, Alytes, 22: 1?14, regarded this as the original use of Anura,
> but Frost, Grant, Faivovich, Bain, Haas, Haddad, de S?, Channing,
> Wilkinson, Donnellan, Raxworthy, Campbell, Blotto, Moler, Drewes, Nussbaum,
> Lynch, Green, and Wheeler, 2006, Bull. Am. Mus. Nat. Hist., 297: 357, who
> beyond the fact that this is an explicit family-group name, saw no
> justification in recognizing non-Latin names in ranks not regulated by the
> International Code of Zoological Nomenclature. Dubois and Raffa?lli, 2012,
> Alytes, 28: 86, and Fouquette and Dubois, 2014, Checklist N.A. Amph. Rept.:
> 253, continued to argue for this being the oldest available name for the
> taxon composed of all frogs, avoiding Dumeril's own words that this is the
> "Famille. Anoures".
>
> Anuri Fischer von Waldheim, 1813, Zoognosia Tab. Synopt. Ill., Ed. 3, 1:
> 58. Unranked taxon (above family-group) for frogs. Identical in content to
> Fischer von Waldheim's Ecaudati. Presumably a reranking and latinization of
> Anoures Dum?ril, 1806, an unavailable family-group name.
>
> Anuria Rafinesque, 1815, Analyse Nat.: 78. Suborder for frogs. Presumably a
> reranking and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
>
> Anoura Gray, 1825, Ann. Philos., London, Ser. 2, 10: 213. Explicit order
> for all frogs, attributed to Dum?ril and considering Salientia Laurenti to
> be a synonym (although Laurenti's Salientia included Proteus). A reranking
> and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
>
> Anura Hogg, 1839, Mag. Nat. Hist., N.S., 3: 270. Explicit order for frogs.
> Presumably an emendation of Anoura Gray, 1825, although possibly a
> reranking and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
>
> Anoures Dum?ril and Bibron, 1841, Erp. Gen., 8: plate opposite page 53.
> Non-Latin suborder for frogs. Presumably a reranking of Anoures Dum?ril,
> 1806.
>
> Anouri Mayer, 1849, Verh. Naturhist. Ver. Preuss. Rheinlande, 6: 198.
> Suborder for frogs. Presumably a latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806, or
> of Dum?ril and Bibron, 1841.
>
> Anura Lichtenstein and Martens, 1856, Nomencl. Rept. Amph. Mus. Zool.
> Berol.: 36. Order for frogs. Presumably a subsequent usage of Anura Hogg,
> 1839.
>
> Anura Romer, 1945, Vert. Paleontol., Ed. 2: 592. Order of superorder
> Salientia to contain living frogs.
>
> Anura Ford and Cannatella, 1993, Herpetol. Monogr., 7: 99. Group of frogs
> defined as the last common ancestor of living frogs and all of the
> descendants of that species.
> ---------------------------
> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fjnQ%2FSNbzXG5FpOO%2F4fkmBq5SXlkpoLluWEJypKmyXc%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 16:31, Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Returning to the subject of my original post - The AMNH Amphibian Species
> > of the World database, version 6.1 as at today, has this to say about
> > "Anura" and apparently related names (subset of a very large number of
> > names above family rank applicable to frogs). For some reason that I
> cannot
> > imagine, the authors of this system decline to give an authorship for
> > "Anura" as an accepted order. So, once again I throw this back to the
> > community of Taxacom for any advice and assistance that may be available
> in
> > selecting a preferred authorship for "Anura"...
> > ----------------------
> > *Anoures* Dum?ril, 1805, Zool. Analyt. Meth. Nat. Class. Anim.
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDumeril-1805-Zool.-Analyt.-Meth.-Nat.-Class.-Anim&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BH8xNa%2BgrIl8Hz8zz2v3Vq3336Hq3m4yW4oMrh3AjIo%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 91, 93. Unavailable family-group name for frogs within Dum?ril's order
> > Batracii. Dubois, 2004, Alytes, 22
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDubois-2004-Alytes-22&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AWSbD5%2BbshuuFBc8xai%2BCb8MEqzJ5vjZDiSnOuGNhHc%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 1?14, regarded this as the original use of Anura, but Frost, Grant,
> > Faivovich, Bain, Haas, Haddad, de S?, Channing, Wilkinson, Donnellan,
> > Raxworthy, Campbell, Blotto, Moler, Drewes, Nussbaum, Lynch, Green, and
> > Wheeler, 2006, Bull. Am. Mus. Nat. Hist., 297
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFrost-Grant-Faivovich-Bain-Haas-Haddad-de-Sa-Channing-Wilkinson-Donnellan-Raxworthy-Campbell-Blotto-Moler-Drewes-Nussbaum-Lynch-Green-and-Wheeler-2006-Bull.-Am.-Mus.-Nat.-Hist.-297&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdataL4bRMe3k6UaPdK8X1PLj3XlVh1x4f%2BkW%2FXQKv5uHzA%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 357, who beyond the fact that this is an *explicit* family-group name,
> > saw no justification in recognizing non-Latin names in ranks not
> regulated
> > by the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature. Dubois and
> > Raffa?lli, 2012, Alytes, 28
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDubois-and-Raffaelli-2012-Alytes-28&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1LzDLASX2Vyn4hGZThNXwTM4J3%2BNcHkO3BWOpJvIT3M%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 86, and Fouquette and Dubois, 2014, Checklist N.A. Amph. Rept.
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFouquette-and-Dubois-2014-Checklist-N.A.-Amph.-Rept.-1-Amph&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XNhkeyxXT0ySC%2FgAE0q0DSqibwg5KJaQdhrl18jC8HQ%3D&reserved=0
> .>:
> > 253, continued to argue for this being the oldest available name for the
> > taxon composed of all frogs, avoiding Dumeril's own words that this is
> the
> > "Famille. Anoures".
> >
> > *Anuri* Fischer von Waldheim, 1813, Zoognosia Tab. Synopt. Ill., Ed. 3, 1
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFischer-von-Waldheim-1813-Zoognosia-Tab.-Synopt.-Ill.-Ed.-3-1&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7n%2Bc3mnIdbZHgjzxIxThC0lPRATgXhcDjewmgFH%2Bx38%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 58. Unranked taxon (above family-group) for frogs. Identical in content
> to
> > Fischer von Waldheim's Ecaudati. Presumably a reranking and latinization
> of
> > Anoures Dum?ril, 1806, an unavailable family-group name.
> >
> > *Anuria* Rafinesque, 1815, Analyse Nat.
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FR%2FRafinesque-1815-Analyse-Nat&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mID1Pfp%2F9%2BFSDPH7fVo9n6%2BzRsmZQdpWZQxZE1kaf68%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 78. Suborder for frogs. Presumably a reranking and latinization of
> Anoures
> > Dum?ril, 1806.
> >
> > *Anoura* Gray, 1825, Ann. Philos., London, Ser. 2, 10
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FG%2FGray-1825-Ann.-Philos.-London-Ser.-2-10&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mDtQ7SI3aLPUWjJXs9l7AwSGTD%2F2md5JF53Xf3%2FBdW4%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 213. Explicit order for all frogs, attributed to Dum?ril and considering
> > Salientia Laurenti to be a synonym (although Laurenti's Salientia
> included
> > *Proteus*). A reranking and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
> >
> > *Anura* Hogg, 1839, Mag. Nat. Hist., N.S., 3
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FH%2FHogg-1839-Mag.-Nat.-Hist.-N.S.-3&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0vD90YB7dh9DQugCzTKYyc2GrLfc88BME0AobYJHejc%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 270. Explicit order for frogs. Presumably an emendation of Anoura Gray,
> > 1825, although possibly a reranking and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril,
> > 1806.
> >
> > *Anoures* Dum?ril and Bibron, 1841, Erp. Gen., 8
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDumeril-and-Bibron-1841-Erp.-Gen.-8&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yR2utv12F0RTJ%2BonKKsi%2BVLYItuWYWgfU0mRah7T8UE%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > plate opposite page 53. Non-Latin suborder for frogs. Presumably a
> > reranking of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
> >
> > *Anouri* Mayer, 1849, Verh. Naturhist. Ver. Preuss. Rheinlande, 6
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FM%2FMayer-1849-Verh.-Naturhist.-Ver.-Preuss.-Rheinlande-6&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s2Sr7cAC1DQHhsTGqlmaJJ%2FCkDfC3z%2FGLa4TySt8Brw%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 198. Suborder for frogs. Presumably a latinization of Anoures Dum?ril,
> > 1806, or of Dum?ril and Bibron, 1841.
> >
> > *Anura* Lichtenstein and Martens, 1856, Nomencl. Rept. Amph. Mus. Zool.
> > Berol.
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FL%2FLichtenstein-and-Martens-1856-Nomencl.-Rept.-Amph.-Mus.-Zool.-Berol&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FOX68xgRiTbYmk3mUeJWkUtdIEcHXAVcaD7cDb8ZgqM%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 36. Order for frogs. Presumably a subsequent usage of Anura Hogg, 1839.
> >
> > *Anura* Romer, 1945, Vert. Paleontol., Ed. 2
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FR%2FRomer-1945-Vert.-Paleontol.-Ed.-2&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0LieyCnbfAhXwfMUG%2Bwlb3NOBFaez4VzZ5jX%2FDo3rVY%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 592. Order of superorder Salientia to contain living frogs.
> >
> > *Anura* Ford and Cannatella, 1993, Herpetol. Monogr., 7
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFord-and-Cannatella-1993-Herpetol.-Monogr.-7&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DM9nLDfRphJUCoMTJutCJtsRrXteK3x5Qw8bL%2FhnaoE%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 99. Group of frogs defined as the last common ancestor of living frogs
> and
> > all of the descendants of that species.
> > -------------------------
> >
> > - Tony
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 16:04, Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes Stephen, one could do that, with a certain amount of re-engineering
> >> (not under my control any more in this case)... however 99%+ of the time
> >> the "name+author+year" system does work (which is why it has been
> adopted
> >> as the de facto standard in virtually all taxonomic data systems as
> well as
> >> the taxonomic literature) - e.g. in the example given above, the
> crustacean
> >> order is Decapoda Latreille, 1802 while the cephalopod order is Decapoda
> >> Leach, 1818 (now Teuthoidea - or possibly Teuthida - Naef, 1916
> (Teuthida
> >> is accepted in ITIS at this time but not in WoRMS, more on that would
> be a
> >> separate thread...)
> >>
> >> Go e.g. to ION/Zoological Record and you will find "name+author+year" as
> >> de facto taxon identifiers, same in Neave, same in Global Names Index,
> same
> >> in ITIS, same in GBIF, etc. etc. At least some attempt at
> standardization
> >> in these matters is clearly helpful :) There are a few instances where
> such
> >> a construct is not unique, where indeed some workarounds are required -
> >> e.g. in my case I tend to use name|| ||authority, name|| ||authority||
> [2]
> >> and so on, others may have their own preference...
> >>
> >> Regards - Tony
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 15:31, Stephen Thorpe <
> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> One could disambiguate homonyms in other ways, e.g. Decapoda
> (Crustacea)
> >>> vs. Decapoda (Cephalopoda). What you actually need is a separate
> >>> disambiguation field associated with each name in your database.
> Sometimes,
> >>> you can disambiguate by author, sometimes by parent taxon or anything
> else
> >>> that does the job.
> >>> Stephen
> >>>
> >>> On Thursday, 23 February 2023 at 04:34:57 pm NZDT, Tony Rees <
> >>> tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Stephen, once again I agree with you to a point, but then differ:
> for
> >>> example, it is a fact that Blackburn & Wake, 2011 cite the order as
> Anura
> >>> Fischer von Waldheim, 1813. So one could give (on WikiXXX if desired) a
> >>> particular authorship "according to [wherever]"; and note any
> alternative
> >>> views as published. Just my take of course. Sometimes it becomes
> important,
> >>> for example according to my recollection there are 2 different orders
> >>> Decapoda, one a Crustacean group in current use, the other something
> else
> >>> (cephalopods? cannot remember), so once again authorship of the name in
> >>> question is a desirable feature.
> >>>
> >>> Regards - Tony
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 12:52, Stephen Thorpe <
> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The problem with putting your preferred authorship on names like Anura
> >>> on Wikimedia is that your preferred authorship is just that and not an
> >>> objective fact because there is no such thing as authorship for such
> names.
> >>> It is a common misconception, but a misconception nonetheless. There
> are no
> >>> codified rules to define the authorship of such names. Nothing to say
> that
> >>> the authorship is the first author. Nothing to say that the work in
> which
> >>> the name was published must be published according to the Code, etc.,
> etc.
> >>> It is all just pointless dust in the wind.
> >>> Stephen
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 06:44:03 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> To: Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Order Anura - correct authorship?
> Message-ID: <2052108854.2234187.1677134643204 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>  This is precisely why using authorship for purely disambiguation purposes
> is hopelessly and unnecessarily complicated!
>     On Thursday, 23 February 2023 at 06:31:54 pm NZDT, Tony Rees <
> tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Returning to the subject of my original post - The AMNH Amphibian Species
> of the World database, version 6.1 as at today, has this to say about
> "Anura" and apparently related names (subset of a very large number of
> names above family rank applicable to frogs). For some reason that I cannot
> imagine, the authors of this system decline to give an authorship for
> "Anura" as an accepted order. So, once again I throw this back to the
> community of Taxacom for any advice and assistance that may be available in
> selecting a preferred authorship for
> "Anura"...----------------------Anoures?Dum?ril, 1805, Zool. Analyt. Meth.
> Nat. Class. Anim.: 91, 93. Unavailable family-group name for frogs within
> Dum?ril's order Batracii.?Dubois, 2004, Alytes,?22: 1?14, regarded this as
> the original use of Anura, but?Frost, Grant, Faivovich, Bain, Haas, Haddad,
> de S?, Channing, Wilkinson, Donnellan, Raxworthy, Campbell, Blotto, Moler,
> Drewes, Nussbaum, Lynch, Green, and Wheeler, 2006, Bull. Am. Mus. Nat.
> Hist.,?
>  297: 357, who beyond the fact that this is an?explicit?family-group name,
> saw no justification in recognizing non-Latin names in ranks not regulated
> by the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature.?Dubois and Raffa?lli,
> 2012, Alytes,?28: 86, and?Fouquette and Dubois, 2014, Checklist N.A. Amph.
> Rept.: 253, continued to argue for this being the oldest available name for
> the taxon composed of all frogs, avoiding Dumeril's own words that this is
> the "Famille. Anoures".
>
> Anuri?Fischer von Waldheim, 1813, Zoognosia Tab. Synopt. Ill., Ed. 3, 1:
> 58. Unranked taxon (above family-group) for frogs. Identical in content to
> Fischer von Waldheim's Ecaudati. Presumably a reranking and latinization of
> Anoures Dum?ril, 1806, an unavailable family-group name.
>
> Anuria?Rafinesque, 1815, Analyse Nat.: 78. Suborder for frogs. Presumably
> a reranking and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
>
> Anoura?Gray, 1825, Ann. Philos., London, Ser. 2,?10: 213. Explicit order
> for all frogs, attributed to Dum?ril and considering Salientia Laurenti to
> be a synonym (although Laurenti's Salientia included?Proteus). A reranking
> and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
>
> Anura?Hogg, 1839, Mag. Nat. Hist., N.S.,?3: 270. Explicit order for frogs.
> Presumably an emendation of Anoura Gray, 1825, although possibly a
> reranking and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
>
> Anoures?Dum?ril and Bibron, 1841, Erp. Gen., 8: plate opposite page 53.
> Non-Latin suborder for frogs. Presumably a reranking of Anoures Dum?ril,
> 1806.
>
> Anouri?Mayer, 1849, Verh. Naturhist. Ver. Preuss. Rheinlande,?6: 198.
> Suborder for frogs. Presumably a latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806, or
> of Dum?ril and Bibron, 1841.
>
> Anura?Lichtenstein and Martens, 1856, Nomencl. Rept. Amph. Mus. Zool.
> Berol.: 36. Order for frogs. Presumably a subsequent usage of Anura Hogg,
> 1839.
>
> Anura?Romer, 1945, Vert. Paleontol., Ed. 2: 592. Order of superorder
> Salientia to contain living frogs.
>
> Anura?Ford and Cannatella, 1993, Herpetol. Monogr.,?7: 99. Group of frogs
> defined as the last common ancestor of living frogs and all of the
> descendants of that species.
> -------------------------
> - Tony
>
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 16:04, Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes Stephen, one could do that, with a certain amount of re-engineering
> (not under my control any more in this case)... however 99%+ of the time
> the "name+author+year" system does work (which is why it has been adopted
> as the de facto standard in virtually all taxonomic data systems as well as
> the taxonomic literature) - e.g. in the example given above, the crustacean
> order is Decapoda Latreille, 1802 while the cephalopod order is Decapoda
> Leach, 1818 (now Teuthoidea - or possibly Teuthida - Naef, 1916 (Teuthida
> is accepted in ITIS at this time but not in WoRMS, more on that would be a
> separate thread...)
> Go e.g. to ION/Zoological Record and you will find "name+author+year" as
> de facto taxon identifiers, same in Neave, same in Global Names Index, same
> in ITIS, same in GBIF, etc. etc. At least some attempt at standardization
> in these matters is clearly helpful :) There are a few instances where such
> a construct is not unique, where?indeed some workarounds are required -
> e.g. in my case I tend to use name|| ||authority, name|| ||authority|| [2]
> and so on, others may have their own preference...
> Regards - Tony
>
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 15:31, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>  One could disambiguate homonyms in other ways, e.g. Decapoda (Crustacea)
> vs. Decapoda (Cephalopoda). What you actually need is a separate
> disambiguation field associated with each name in your database. Sometimes,
> you can disambiguate by author, sometimes by parent taxon or anything else
> that does the job.Stephen
>     On Thursday, 23 February 2023 at 04:34:57 pm NZDT, Tony Rees <
> tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Hi Stephen, once again I agree with you to a point, but then differ: for
> example, it is a fact that?Blackburn & Wake, 2011 cite the order as Anura
> Fischer von Waldheim, 1813. So one could give (on WikiXXX if desired) a
> particular authorship "according to [wherever]"; and note any alternative
> views as published. Just my take of course. Sometimes it becomes important,
> for example according to my recollection there are 2 different orders
> Decapoda, one a Crustacean group in current use, the other something else
> (cephalopods? cannot remember), so once again authorship of the name in
> question is a desirable feature.
> Regards - Tony
>
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 12:52, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>  The problem with putting your preferred authorship on names like Anura on
> Wikimedia is that your?preferred authorship is just that and not an
> objective fact because there is no such thing as authorship for such names.
> It is a common misconception, but a misconception nonetheless. There are no
> codified rules to define the authorship of such names. Nothing to say that
> the authorship is the first author. Nothing to say that the work in which
> the name was published must be published according to the Code, etc., etc.
> It is all just pointless dust in the wind.Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 18:21:13 +1100
> From: Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com>
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Order Anura - correct authorship?
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CABEjCKOkB3YbpQwzNm6UBxHWiQpwFN9qMiWHvrYycRzGZH2f-A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I disagree. Using authorship permits the reader to know exactly which name
> instance is under discussion. Now all that the relevant experts need to do
> is to decide which of these is the appropriate one to use!
>
> Tony
>
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023, 5:44 pm Stephen Thorpe, <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> > This is precisely why using authorship for purely disambiguation purposes
> > is hopelessly and unnecessarily complicated!
> >
> > On Thursday, 23 February 2023 at 06:31:54 pm NZDT, Tony Rees <
> > tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Returning to the subject of my original post - The AMNH Amphibian Species
> > of the World database, version 6.1 as at today, has this to say about
> > "Anura" and apparently related names (subset of a very large number of
> > names above family rank applicable to frogs). For some reason that I
> cannot
> > imagine, the authors of this system decline to give an authorship for
> > "Anura" as an accepted order. So, once again I throw this back to the
> > community of Taxacom for any advice and assistance that may be available
> in
> > selecting a preferred authorship for "Anura"...
> > ----------------------
> > *Anoures* Dum?ril, 1805, Zool. Analyt. Meth. Nat. Class. Anim.
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDumeril-1805-Zool.-Analyt.-Meth.-Nat.-Class.-Anim&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BH8xNa%2BgrIl8Hz8zz2v3Vq3336Hq3m4yW4oMrh3AjIo%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 91, 93. Unavailable family-group name for frogs within Dum?ril's order
> > Batracii. Dubois, 2004, Alytes, 22
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDubois-2004-Alytes-22&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AWSbD5%2BbshuuFBc8xai%2BCb8MEqzJ5vjZDiSnOuGNhHc%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 1?14, regarded this as the original use of Anura, but Frost, Grant,
> > Faivovich, Bain, Haas, Haddad, de S?, Channing, Wilkinson, Donnellan,
> > Raxworthy, Campbell, Blotto, Moler, Drewes, Nussbaum, Lynch, Green, and
> > Wheeler, 2006, Bull. Am. Mus. Nat. Hist., 297
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFrost-Grant-Faivovich-Bain-Haas-Haddad-de-Sa-Channing-Wilkinson-Donnellan-Raxworthy-Campbell-Blotto-Moler-Drewes-Nussbaum-Lynch-Green-and-Wheeler-2006-Bull.-Am.-Mus.-Nat.-Hist.-297&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdataL4bRMe3k6UaPdK8X1PLj3XlVh1x4f%2BkW%2FXQKv5uHzA%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 357, who beyond the fact that this is an *explicit* family-group name,
> > saw no justification in recognizing non-Latin names in ranks not
> regulated
> > by the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature. Dubois and
> > Raffa?lli, 2012, Alytes, 28
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDubois-and-Raffaelli-2012-Alytes-28&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1LzDLASX2Vyn4hGZThNXwTM4J3%2BNcHkO3BWOpJvIT3M%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 86, and Fouquette and Dubois, 2014, Checklist N.A. Amph. Rept.
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFouquette-and-Dubois-2014-Checklist-N.A.-Amph.-Rept.-1-Amph&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XNhkeyxXT0ySC%2FgAE0q0DSqibwg5KJaQdhrl18jC8HQ%3D&reserved=0
> .>:
> > 253, continued to argue for this being the oldest available name for the
> > taxon composed of all frogs, avoiding Dumeril's own words that this is
> the
> > "Famille. Anoures".
> >
> > *Anuri* Fischer von Waldheim, 1813, Zoognosia Tab. Synopt. Ill., Ed. 3, 1
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFischer-von-Waldheim-1813-Zoognosia-Tab.-Synopt.-Ill.-Ed.-3-1&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7n%2Bc3mnIdbZHgjzxIxThC0lPRATgXhcDjewmgFH%2Bx38%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 58. Unranked taxon (above family-group) for frogs. Identical in content
> to
> > Fischer von Waldheim's Ecaudati. Presumably a reranking and latinization
> of
> > Anoures Dum?ril, 1806, an unavailable family-group name.
> >
> > *Anuria* Rafinesque, 1815, Analyse Nat.
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FR%2FRafinesque-1815-Analyse-Nat&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mID1Pfp%2F9%2BFSDPH7fVo9n6%2BzRsmZQdpWZQxZE1kaf68%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 78. Suborder for frogs. Presumably a reranking and latinization of
> Anoures
> > Dum?ril, 1806.
> >
> > *Anoura* Gray, 1825, Ann. Philos., London, Ser. 2, 10
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FG%2FGray-1825-Ann.-Philos.-London-Ser.-2-10&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mDtQ7SI3aLPUWjJXs9l7AwSGTD%2F2md5JF53Xf3%2FBdW4%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 213. Explicit order for all frogs, attributed to Dum?ril and considering
> > Salientia Laurenti to be a synonym (although Laurenti's Salientia
> included
> > *Proteus*). A reranking and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
> >
> > *Anura* Hogg, 1839, Mag. Nat. Hist., N.S., 3
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FH%2FHogg-1839-Mag.-Nat.-Hist.-N.S.-3&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0vD90YB7dh9DQugCzTKYyc2GrLfc88BME0AobYJHejc%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 270. Explicit order for frogs. Presumably an emendation of Anoura Gray,
> > 1825, although possibly a reranking and latinization of Anoures Dum?ril,
> > 1806.
> >
> > *Anoures* Dum?ril and Bibron, 1841, Erp. Gen., 8
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FD%2FDumeril-and-Bibron-1841-Erp.-Gen.-8&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yR2utv12F0RTJ%2BonKKsi%2BVLYItuWYWgfU0mRah7T8UE%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > plate opposite page 53. Non-Latin suborder for frogs. Presumably a
> > reranking of Anoures Dum?ril, 1806.
> >
> > *Anouri* Mayer, 1849, Verh. Naturhist. Ver. Preuss. Rheinlande, 6
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FM%2FMayer-1849-Verh.-Naturhist.-Ver.-Preuss.-Rheinlande-6&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s2Sr7cAC1DQHhsTGqlmaJJ%2FCkDfC3z%2FGLa4TySt8Brw%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 198. Suborder for frogs. Presumably a latinization of Anoures Dum?ril,
> > 1806, or of Dum?ril and Bibron, 1841.
> >
> > *Anura* Lichtenstein and Martens, 1856, Nomencl. Rept. Amph. Mus. Zool.
> > Berol.
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FL%2FLichtenstein-and-Martens-1856-Nomencl.-Rept.-Amph.-Mus.-Zool.-Berol&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799209703%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FOX68xgRiTbYmk3mUeJWkUtdIEcHXAVcaD7cDb8ZgqM%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 36. Order for frogs. Presumably a subsequent usage of Anura Hogg, 1839.
> >
> > *Anura* Romer, 1945, Vert. Paleontol., Ed. 2
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FR%2FRomer-1945-Vert.-Paleontol.-Ed.-2&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799365903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata�ZGlqXcEXD657si%2FXaRMDwxHwaES%2FYgBiYGSePA2SA%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 592. Order of superorder Salientia to contain living frogs.
> >
> > *Anura* Ford and Cannatella, 1993, Herpetol. Monogr., 7
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famphibiansoftheworld.amnh.org%2FBibliography%2FF%2FFord-and-Cannatella-1993-Herpetol.-Monogr.-7&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799365903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z8X4kqkj1hYW7hBvLOLUMwUtkqSEqU%2Bbm9rm62BaAaA%3D&reserved=0
> >:
> > 99. Group of frogs defined as the last common ancestor of living frogs
> and
> > all of the descendants of that species.
> > -------------------------
> >
> > - Tony
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 16:04, Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Yes Stephen, one could do that, with a certain amount of re-engineering
> > (not under my control any more in this case)... however 99%+ of the time
> > the "name+author+year" system does work (which is why it has been adopted
> > as the de facto standard in virtually all taxonomic data systems as well
> as
> > the taxonomic literature) - e.g. in the example given above, the
> crustacean
> > order is Decapoda Latreille, 1802 while the cephalopod order is Decapoda
> > Leach, 1818 (now Teuthoidea - or possibly Teuthida - Naef, 1916 (Teuthida
> > is accepted in ITIS at this time but not in WoRMS, more on that would be
> a
> > separate thread...)
> >
> > Go e.g. to ION/Zoological Record and you will find "name+author+year" as
> > de facto taxon identifiers, same in Neave, same in Global Names Index,
> same
> > in ITIS, same in GBIF, etc. etc. At least some attempt at standardization
> > in these matters is clearly helpful :) There are a few instances where
> such
> > a construct is not unique, where indeed some workarounds are required -
> > e.g. in my case I tend to use name|| ||authority, name|| ||authority||
> [2]
> > and so on, others may have their own preference...
> >
> > Regards - Tony
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 15:31, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > One could disambiguate homonyms in other ways, e.g. Decapoda (Crustacea)
> > vs. Decapoda (Cephalopoda). What you actually need is a separate
> > disambiguation field associated with each name in your database.
> Sometimes,
> > you can disambiguate by author, sometimes by parent taxon or anything
> else
> > that does the job.
> > Stephen
> >
> > On Thursday, 23 February 2023 at 04:34:57 pm NZDT, Tony Rees <
> > tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Stephen, once again I agree with you to a point, but then differ: for
> > example, it is a fact that Blackburn & Wake, 2011 cite the order as Anura
> > Fischer von Waldheim, 1813. So one could give (on WikiXXX if desired) a
> > particular authorship "according to [wherever]"; and note any alternative
> > views as published. Just my take of course. Sometimes it becomes
> important,
> > for example according to my recollection there are 2 different orders
> > Decapoda, one a Crustacean group in current use, the other something else
> > (cephalopods? cannot remember), so once again authorship of the name in
> > question is a desirable feature.
> >
> > Regards - Tony
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 12:52, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > The problem with putting your preferred authorship on names like Anura on
> > Wikimedia is that your preferred authorship is just that and not an
> > objective fact because there is no such thing as authorship for such
> names.
> > It is a common misconception, but a misconception nonetheless. There are
> no
> > codified rules to define the authorship of such names. Nothing to say
> that
> > the authorship is the first author. Nothing to say that the work in which
> > the name was published must be published according to the Code, etc.,
> etc.
> > It is all just pointless dust in the wind.
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:55:00 +0000
> From: John McNeill <johnm at rom.on.ca>
> To: Lorenzo Gallo <lorenzogallo1959 at hotmail.it>, "Beach, James H. via
>         Taxacom" <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>, Tom Schweich <tas27 at schweich.com>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Nomenclator Botanicus (Steudel)
> Message-ID:
>         <
> YQBPR0101MB605321D78A7A29EBA38010F0E7AB9 at YQBPR0101MB6053.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Well, TL-2 (
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sil.si.edu%2FDigitalCollections%2Ftl-2%2Fbrowse.cfm%3Fvol%3D5%23page%2F921&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799365903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0Y1q2dmyvjr2FSUi8aezWxFpLBChWcQ6pvBerFvMxWg%3D&reserved=0)
> has quite a bit of information on "Steudel, Ernst Gottlieb [von]
> (1783-1856), German (W?rttemberg) botanist and physician"  Best, John
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John McNeill,  Director Emeritus, Royal Ontario Museum;
>       Honorary Associate, Royal Botanic Garden, Edinburgh
> Mailing address:  Royal Botanic Garden, Edinburgh, EH3 5LR, Scotland, U.K.
> Telephone:    +44-131-248-2848;  fax: +44-131-248-2901
> Home office:  +44-162-088-0651
> e-mail: jmcneill at rbge.org.uk (mail to johnm at rom.on.ca is also read)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of Tom Schweich
> via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Sent: February 22, 2023 4:32 PM
> To: Lorenzo Gallo <lorenzogallo1959 at hotmail.it>; Beach, James H. via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Nomenclator Botanicus (Steudel)
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] DO NOT CLICK links or attachments unless you recognize
> the sender and know the content is safe.
>
> The title page says, "enumerans ordine alphabetico" or "listing in
> alphabetical order" and it does appear to be arranged so.  Is that
> answer responsive to the question?
>
> --
> tomas at schweich.com
> https:\\
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.schweich.com%2F&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799365903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ppXjVNt40ucS4qR4epbZL%2ByCNXqbazu4aBb%2B6gShGRQ%3D&reserved=0
> Mobile: 510-701-3418
>
> On 2/21/2023 11:59 PM, Lorenzo Gallo via Taxacom wrote:
> > Hi to all
> > Anyone know papers about Ernst Gottlieb Steudel and his works, in
> particular on the Nomenclator Botanicus and how it is arranged ? It seems
> that there is not much literature on this author and his works ...
> > Thanks
> > Lorenzo Gallo
> > lorenzogallo1959 at hotmail.it
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023
> _______________________________________________
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023
>
> Opens March 13, T. rex: The Ultimate Predator<
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rom.on.ca%2Fen%2Fexhibitions-galleries%2Fexhibitions%2Ft-rex-the-ultimate-predator&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799365903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MwNoIr5uoKznixFlbrZKf48u9hsrFEimUfXy8T%2FpmQU%3D&reserved=0>
> explores the world of tyrannosaurs, including T. rex, from little baby to
> roaring beast. Book now at rom.ca<
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rom.on.ca%2Fen&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799365903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MQ%2FKsugLLQh80JCFrqUhB8H9DXPq7Bi8g%2Bh6%2BpJtwXc%3D&reserved=0
>  qDcFE0%3D&reserved=0>
>
> ________________________________
>
> ? partir du 13 mars, l'exposition T. Rex : Le pr?dateur supr?me explore<
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rom.on.ca%2Fen%2Fexhibitions-galleries%2Fexhibitions%2Ft-rex-the-ultimate-predator&data%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C31ae0a8c02594642896108db15f44061%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638127912799365903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MwNoIr5uoKznixFlbrZKf48u9hsrFEimUfXy8T%2FpmQU%3D&reserved=0>
> le monde des tyrannosaures, y compris T. rex, du tout-petit au colosse.
> R?servez vos billets d?s le 17 janvier ? rom.ca/fr<
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>  %2FPv9wZx%2FiIgv7ncMqxwlmZsWqags4JhdOGyk2qDcFE0%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 202, Issue 14
> ****************************************
>