[Taxacom] Fw: scorpion systematics question

[John Grehan]

Thanks Tony and Fet for the kind feedback. I will look into this a bit
more, especially Sharma 2015 (I assume this is a molecular study and always
problematic when in conflict with clear apomorphies). The 'disjunction' in
Iuridae (s. lat) involves standard connections seen in other groups. Main
question is whether the connection is via the Pacific (perhaps implied by
the east Pacific range of the NW groups, possibly old Tethyan as in
Coriaria) or Atlantic (and comparable example being Sphinginotus
grasshoppers in Galapagos and Caribbean and Eurasia, with closest relatives
at the European end). Perhaps when the Iuridae or whatever group is better
resolved and especially its sister group, the geographic affinity might be
better clarified.

John Grehan

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 9:15 PM Fet, Victor via Taxacom <
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:

>
>
> Families Caraboctonidae and Iuridae have been considered sister groups
> since 1980s  (see Soleglad & Fet 2003), under superfamily Iuridae, but
> their disjunction (the New World vs Mediterranean) was not explained since
> Francke & Soleglad (1981)
>
> Indeed scorpions enjoy many spectacular disjunctions especially in relict
> taxa(e.g. cave genus Arab from Israel and related Mexican litter and cave
> genera! Or blind Pyrenean  Belisarius whose family placement and affinities
> are still disputed, etc. Fossils do not help much.
>
> New phylogenomic data by Sharma et al (2015) argue that the two families
> are  not closely related (thus some unique morphological characters they
> share would be homoplasies).
> This is one of the interesting and ongoing issues in higher scorpion
> systematics today.
>
> Further analysis should include other taxa of Iuridae since genus Iurus
> used by Sharma et al appears to be derived.  Iuridae is a relict
> Mediterranean family, and our recent work especially on Anatolia shows at
> least four genera and 14 species... some are in fact living in quite arid
> places in Turkey close to Syrian border, not a very hospitable area for
> collecting...)
>
>
>
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of Tony Rees
> via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 4:18 PM
> To: John Grehan
> Cc: taxacom
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] scorpion systematics question
>
>
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ntnu.no%2fub%2fscorpion-files%2fcaraboctonidae.php&c=E,1,zapRv00jZV7eAZpXsIxoIrecRQNriDG9NaDzBrruW7LV1djoPeABYwvzD8ZGZTPcUHdnCw11at4G0X4JEkylz0IRTh1PXU1zyt9aJrKEaII8eukTsOYT1p4zYcF6&typo=1
> Recognises four genera: *Caraboctonus, **Hadrurus, **Hadruroides* and
> *Hoffmannihadrurus.*
>
> Regards - Tony
>
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 at 06:14, Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Also, I just noticed that Sharma et al., 2015 (
> >
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2fpmc%2farticles%2fPMC4375871%2f&c=E,1,hSj4dnCCm2Il8rOLhnhhnpvyDtqCjVma9GOE2jiGQtcEdGrm6jqI9aNX_qIvTcKnuVCefp7nM-dkR_98MmWrA46i99KKQJdjYQEh3RSG48h0RhZRXC9nIxc,&typo=1)
> include Hadrurus
> > in fam. Caraboctonidae in their Figure 3 (presumably where Caraboctonus
> > would also reside). So you may need to do some additional sleuthing...
> > Caraboctonidae is a recognised family according to Mullen & Sissom, 2019
> :(
> >
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.1016%2fB978-0-12-814043-7.00023-6&c=E,1,n64nnF84ZMbPRA7CxQ8BidfWwNEHnAuPcJCoqjgamV-hM6W4Q85kNY4rjBQXImShSOuYFRdOx3nk90Nho7oE8-AuwcEkla-eTKSoO_w0AkksPbnKowYUxFNCvw,,&typo=1
> )
> >
> > quote: "The *Caraboctonidae* is a New World family with four genera and
> > 32 species. The genera Caraboctonus (one species) and Hadruroides (22
> species)
> > are found in western South America..."
> >
> > Regards - Tony
> >
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