[Taxacom] Renner (2004) and words that dare not speak their names

[John Grehan]

Yes, exactly that. With molecular estimates misrepresented as actual or
maximal dates everything is reduced to hash, and not very good hash at
that. When fossil calibrated dates are misrepresented in this way the
results are meaningless when it comes to supposedly assessing 'dispersal'
and 'vicariance' since the results are all pure fiction. All supposed
evidence for chance dispersal is an artifact of this misrepresentation of
what the data actually is. What really surprises me is that creationists
haven't even grasped this or they would be having a field day with it.

John Grehan

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 3:50 PM Michael Heads via Taxacom <
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:

> I think John's point was that Renner treated fossil-calibrated clock ages,
> incorrectly, as maximum clade ages rather than minimums.
>
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 7:57 AM Timothy Dickinson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> > data are data, and someone can analyze these occurrences again and we'll
> > see what we see. what i find odd about this paper (Renner 2004), and its
> > publication in IJPS, is that an alternative hypothesis does not seem to
> > have been mentioned. in fact, "hypothesis" and "vicariance" appear only
> > once each, in the titles of papers cited by the author. what were the
> > reviewers, and the editor, thinking???
> >
> > well,to answer my own question, this paper comes from one of the IJPS
> > special supplements, one on "Tropical Intercontinental Disjunctions."
> > the lead paper by Givnish and Renner does explore the competing claims
> > of dispersal and vicariance, as do some of the other papers. Renner's
> > paper appears to be a data-only contribution setting the stage (from a
> > particular POV to be sure) for the discussion of amphiatlantic
> > disjunctions. the editors for this special issue (Givnish and Renner?)
> > give the last word to Robert Thorne ("It is most gratifying to this
> > biogeographer to see in the contributions to this volume that the
> > zealotry of the recent vicariance biogeographers has returned to
> > normalcy with the current acceptance of vicariance, long�distance
> > dispersal, and immigration from the boreotropics as possible
> > explanations of intercontinental disjunctions."), so ok, the overall
> > perspective seems to be one of vindicating dispersal while accepting
> > vicariance.
> >
> > i think it's unfair to dismiss out of context this one paper (by
> > Renner). the other papers in this issue suggest to me that the editors
> > and authors *are* thinking about the constraints on the possible
> > explanations for the disjunctions they describe.
> >
> > ---tad.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > <Tim Dickinson
> > <Senior Curator Emeritus
> > <ROM Green Plant Herbarium (TRT)
> > <
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> > <Royal Ontario Museum
> > <100 Queen's Park
> > <Toronto  ON
> > <CANADA  M5S 2C6
> > <
> > <Phone:  (416) 782 1607     FAX:  (416) 586 7921
> > <E-mail:  tim.dickinson at utoronto.ca  -  ORCID ID
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> > <URL:
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> > <URL:
> > http://www.eeb.utoronto.ca/people/d-faculty/Dickinson.htm?quot;%20title> > <URL: http://labs.eeb.utoronto.ca/dickinson/NABFH-I/ (publications on
> > Crataegus)
> >
> >
> <++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017.
>
> https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
>
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
> Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
>
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
> Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn—80520271968
>
>
> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> <
> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s
> >
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> Nurturing nuance while assaulting ambiguity for 32 some years, 1987-2019.
>