[Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
Stephen Thorpe
stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Sun Sep 24 18:40:46 CDT 2017
2017
I disagree. There are only a handful of cases (at least in entomology) where anyone has bothered to notice that the plates might predate the text of a work. So, they then change all the names (to the new priority dates), and this threatens stability!
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 25/9/17, Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer 1874"
To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Received: Monday, 25 September, 2017, 12:30 PM
As I said, I have no problem with
it. Usually the dates are researched.
The
problem is that it is difficult to find out where the dates
have
been published. We have a typical case
here. The problem is how to
connect such
information.
I have done such researches on
dates myself, and did not have the
feeling
you describe. I could have described more taxa, but in this
epoch I just liked to do some library work
and research some dates.
Working with such
old works is interesting because as a scientist you
can learn a lot.
Changing the
rules, as you suggest, would distort a well established
system, and this would be much worse. We would
have to revise the dates
of many thousand
names, and also change names of species because of
changing precedences within species. This would
threaten stability.
-----
Francisco
Am 24.09.2017 um 23:46 schrieb Stephen
Thorpe:
> Clear and stable is important,
yes, but so is simple (and not requiring work for no real
gain or scientific relevance). Do you really think that such
"work" (to determine historical dates of
publication of plates) is a good use of research funding in
a world where still untold thousands of taxa are
undescribed?
>
>
Stephen
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/9/17, Francisco Welter-Schultes
<fwelter at gwdg.de>
wrote:
>
>
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer
1874"
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Received: Monday, 25 September, 2017,
9:38 AM
>
> The
dates of such works are not
> the
problem. It is possible to research
>
them. You are right, it is additional work, but
> I have no problem with
> it. The most
>
important thing is a clear and stable rule.
>
> -----
> Francisco
>
> Am
> 24.09.2017
um 23:21 schrieb Stephen Thorpe:
>
> This is precisely the sort of
>
nomenclatural nonsense which gives taxonomy a bad name!
For
> God's sake, why not just
have a simple rule in the Code
> which
says that illustrations published before the text are
> deemed to be published simultaneously
with the text? It
> would save so much
pointless work trying to determine dates.
> Such work has absolutely no scientific
content or merit.
> >
> > Stephen
>
>
> >
>
--------------------------------------------
> > On Sat, 23/9/17, Doug Yanega
<dyanega at ucr.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> Subject:
[Taxacom] "Felder & Rogenhofer
> 1874"
>
> To: "iczn-list"
>
<iczn-list at afriherp.org>,
> "taxacom" <TAXACOM at MAILMAN.NHM.KU.EDU>
> > Received: Saturday, 23
September, 2017,
> 4:44 AM
> >
> >
Hi.
> Can anyone give a definitive
statement
> > regarding the
work linked here:
> >
> > http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/1221095#page/9/mode/1up
> >
> >
Here is the
> situation: this
particular
> > work, as
> linked here from the
> >
>
Smithsonian's copy, LOOKS like a single
> > work, and the second page
says
> > "Juli 1875".
However, if you
> look at
> > the plates at the end, they
> all
> >
have a date at the bottom that
>
says
> > 1868. There are some
names
> that
>
> appear differently in the text
> and
> >
plates, so potentially made
>
available
> > on different
dates if they
> were *not*
> > simultaneously issued.
> This
> >
potentially affects the
> validity of
at
> > least one genus name
> presently in
>
> use, so I would like to
> be
certain I
> > have the
details
> correct.
> >
> >
> Neave, in the Nomenclator
Zoologicus,
> >
> cites names in the plates as being
> >
> from 1868,
and names in the text as
> >
> being from 1874.
>
>
> > References to this
work in the NHM
> > Catalog
at
> >
>
> http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/data/butmoth/
> >
> >
cite the names
> appearing in the
plates
> > as being
> from 1874 and the text
> > as being from
> 1875 (despite both being
> > linked to
> the BHL copy which has
> > them in a
> single work).
>
>
> > I have not yet been
able to locate
> any
> > source that explains (1)
what
> > *evidence* there is
that the plates
> and
> > text were published
> separately,
>
> nor (2) how and why one
> of
the dates is
> > usually given
as
> 1874, nor (3)
> > why the dates of the
> presumed separate
> > parts are given
> inconsistently by
> > different sources.
> It also strikes me
> > as odd that the
> work seems
>
> *uniformly* cited as
>
"Felder &
> >
Rogenhofer"
> when the text
rather clearly
> > lists
> TWO Felders, Cajetan and Rudolf
> >
>
(shouldn't it then be Felder,
>
>
> Felder & Rogenhofer?).
> >
> >
This is very confusing, to say the
>
> least, and I would be grateful if
> > anyone can point to something
that
> > would help iron this
out.
> >
>
> Peace,
> >
> > --
>
> Doug Yanega Dept.
>
> of Entomology Entomology
> Research
>
> Museum
> > Univ. of
California, Riverside, CA
> >
92521-0314 skype: dyanega
>
> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer:
> > opinions are mine, not
UCR's)
> >
> >
> http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
> > "There are some
enterprises
> in
> > which a careful
disorderliness
> >
is the
> > true
method" - Herman Melville,
> Moby
Dick, Chap. 82
> >
> >
>
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Nurturing
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> >
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Nurturing Nuance
> while Assaulting
Ambiguity for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
> >
>
>
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> Nurturing
Nuance while
> Assaulting Ambiguity
for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
>
> .
>
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