[Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
Stephen Thorpe
stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Sun Jan 17 14:02:46 CST 2016
2016
John,
No, that is a red herring. I don't really care what our taxes are spent on. My objection to open access is that public good is being used to defend it when the public gets nothing that they want, and clearly there is something else entirely behind all the pro open access lobbying. I am also concerned that it will result in less taxonomic research being done, due to a proportion of the funding being diverted to open access fees (ultimately ending up as publisher's profits). Maybe USA is awash in excess funding, but N.Z. not so much!
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 18/1/16, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Cc: "Lynn Raw" <lynn at afriherp.org>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Received: Monday, 18 January, 2016, 8:42 AM
Stephen's latest
seems to indicate that one should not pay taxes towards that
for whom the individual is not interested in paying for. I
might not, for example, be interested to pay towards
exploration of the moon etc. etc. Some think the
'public' in general should not pay for road upkeep,
but just the user should pay. In the US there is a user pays
approach to health 'care' through insurance which
causes well known problems of access. Its a philosophy.
There are of course other philosophies.
John Grehan
On Sun, Jan 17, 2016
at 2:19 PM, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
wrote:
Lynn,
I don't think that I am the one confusing different
issues at all.
>When the research is paid for by ‘the public� then
there should be an obligation for this to be made freely
available to “the public� whether they are interested or
not<
That is a moot point, which does sound analogous to
helping the proverbial old lady across the road who
doesn't want to cross the road! But let's accept it
for the sake of argument. The crucial point is that open
access makes nothing "freely available"! Let's
try to grasp an analogy. I always travel by public transport
(bus and train), so I buy monthly passes at the start of
each month. Then I have unlimited travel for that month. But
it is not "free" travel! I have just paid for it
in advance, that's all. Same with open access, except it
is worse because most of the public have no interest in
reading most of what they would have paid for in advance
under open access!
The second crucial point is that public money for open
access fees will either result in the public paying more
towards research (with nothing they particularly want in
return), or, most likely, it will result in less research
being done for the same amount of funding (because a
proportion of it is spent on open access fees). Either way,
the public doesn't benefit!
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 18/1/16, Lynn Raw <lynn at afriherp.org>
wrote:
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
 To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
 Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 Received: Monday, 18 January, 2016, 3:07 AM
 Are you
 confusing different issues? When the research is paid for
by
 ‘the public� then there should be an obligation for
this
 to be made freely available to “the public� whether
they
 are interested or not. Admittedly, perhaps this should
 be limited to the residents/taxpayers of the countries
 concerned (i.e., EU member states for EU-funded
research).
 As pointed out previously, some countries already publish
 the reports resulting from government-funded research on
 their own websites (e.g. randd.defra.gov.uk). As
a
 proportion of the average
person’s annual tax bill the
 amount spent on funding taxonomy compared to the overall
 research budget is likely to be sufficiently minuscule to
be
 virtually undetectable. In the case of corporation-funded
 research (unlikely to involve taxonomy) then this is
likely
 to be either unpublished and closely guarded for
competitive
 advantage or published for general information and used
to
 obtain publicity. In this case the open-access model
would
 be the appropriate advertising choice. Funding by
charities
 is also likely to follow the publicity route with the
 open-access model. This leaves researcher-funded research
 where the open-access model is probably desirable but
more
 likely to be unaffordable. This type of research is also
 more likely to concern the many non-affiliated
taxonomists
 who also need the availability of open-access
publications
 to conduct their research. Maybe it is time to focus on
 solutions to this particular problem rather than debate
the
 bigger picture.
 On 17 Jan
 2016, at 05:06, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
 wrote:
 Yes Elena, clearly something is going
 on here under the surface "philanthropy". Note
 that either way, the public has to pay to read taxonomic
 literature, just either (1) they choose what they want to
 read and pay for it (standard model); or (2) they pay in
 advance for every single thing that they might want to
read
 (open access). Hmmm...
 Stephen
 --------------------------------------------
 On Sun, 17/1/16, Elena Kupriyanova
 <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 wrote:
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
 To: "'gread at actrix.gen.nz'"
 <gread at actrix.gen.nz>
 Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 Received: Sunday, 17 January, 2016,
 5:35 PM
 Dear Geoff and et al.,
 I have a strange feeling thatÂ
 as a hypothetical 30
 year old
 long-distance truck driver fascinated by beetles
 you would be looking for a
 well-illustrated BOOK (not a
 Zootaxa article) on beetles of New Zealand. It is
 unlikely
 that you would be
 complaining when you learn that you either
 would need to buy such a book or to
 drive (walk) to a
 library to
 borrow it. Would this be a case of restricting
 what people can read because
 it's not directly
 relevant to
 their current job or place in society? We all
 buy books, don't we? Why is it ok
 for us to buy or borrow
 book, but
 at the same time we are convinced that scientific
 journals should be available to us
 instantly at a mouse
 click? I am
 confused now...
 Lena
 Dr. Elena
 Kupriyanova
 Senior Research
 Scientist
 Marine Invertebrates
 Associate
 Editor,
 Records of the Australian
 Museum
 Australian Museum Research Institute
 1 William Street Sydney NSW 2010
 Australia
 t 61 2 9320
 6340  m 61402735679  f 61 2 9320
 6059
 Visit: http://www.australianmuseum.net.au
 Like: http://www.facebook.com/australianmuseum
 Follow: http://www.twitter.com/austmus
 Watch: http://www.youtube.com/austmus
 Inspiring the exploration of nature
 and cultures
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
 On Behalf Of Geoffrey Read
 Sent: Friday, 15 January 2016 4:53
 PM
 To: Stephen Thorpe
 Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our
 taxonomic tidbit
 I admire your persistence Stephen!
 Let's
 say I'm a 30 year old long-distance truck
 driver. It's okay, but as a
 child I collected beetles
 and I
 still dream of becoming a biologist.
 Maybe it won't happen but I'm
 planning to go to university
 when
 I've saved up. Meantime I'm fascinated by the
 articles
 on beetles at Zootaxa,
 and need them to identify what I see
 in my garden. I contribute to
 Naturewatch too on my days
 off.
 Damn, so many of the articles are paywalled! It's
 really frustrating.
 Well
 Stephen, I reckon truck drivers too should be able to
 read Zootaxa articles gratis and
 without begging for them if
 it's easy enough for us to make it so. And I
 believe
 in not restricting what
 people can do or read because it's
 not directly relevant to their
 current job or place in
 society.
 Geoff
 On Fri, January 15, 2016 6:10 pm,
 Stephen Thorpe wrote:
 But Geoff, you are a
 taxonomist and therefore not a
 member of the
 public (in the relevant sense). The
 public should not
 have to pay so
 that you just might find
 something interesting in
 articles that aren't
 directly relevant to your work (or at
 least they should
 be
 given the
 informed choice of whether or not to
 pay). Don't think
 about it just
 from your perspective.
 Think instead of how much demand
 their really
 is for many taxonomic papers, stacked
 against the cost
 of
 making all
 of them freely available to everybody.
 There is a
 difference
 between
 "hiding information away"
 versus using public money to
 make it
 available to everyone, when only a
 handful of
 specialists are remotely interested in reading it.
 Stephen
 --------------------------------------------
 On Fri, 15/1/16, Geoff Read <gread at actrix.gen.nz>
 wrote:
 Â
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic
 tidbit
  To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
  Received: Friday, 15 January,
 2016, 5:17 PM
  Stephen,
  You
 say " absolutely no point in paying
 publishers up
 front to make
 the publications
 available freely to everybody in
 the world"
  The
 idea that we should restrict access, hide
 away information
 from
 the public, and make it
 difficult to read our
 works is abhorrent to
 me.
 Â
 Fortunately we've come a long way in my lifetime
 towards open
 exchange and discussion - the
 internet as the
 shining example, andÂ
 special mention to the access
 via BHL which has
 revolutionized our
 work as taxonomists
 more recently.
  Every paper published in
 Zootaxa today was
 paywalled. I don't have aÂ
 subscription, so I don't have the
 access to Zootaxa
 that I know you
 do, but I'm
 interested in dipping into a wide
 range of taxonomyÂ
 when
 I see something on the spot that
 just might be
 worth
 reading but is
 outside my narrow
 specialty. It helps me with my
 own work and it's
 good to see other ways of
 doing things,
 interpretations of the code,
 and the new techniquesÂ
 used. To do that
 today I need to write ten
 begging letters, and wait.
 Or pay 140
 dollars ($14 per paper). So
 I'll look at none of
 them.
  Yesterday was short paper day
 at Zootaxa - every
 one of those six
 was paywalled
 (including one from a colleague at
 Elena'sÂ
 institute),
 but could have so
 easily have been open access
 and read much moreÂ
 widely for just lunch money for
 most of the
 authors,
 or around a taxi
 fare if theirÂ
 employer pays. Hence my
 amazement that people
 would
 not do that when they had
 the chance.
  Geoff
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
  On Behalf Of
  Stephen Thorpe
  Sent: Friday, 15 January 2016
 2:46 p.m.
  To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
  Elena Kupriyanova
  <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall
 our taxonomic
 tidbit
  Dear
 Elena,
  I like your post because I am
 trying to get
 people
 to think this
 matter through, and
 your post shows that you are
 starting to doÂ
 just
 that. There appears to be a
 significant group who
 are lobbying for
 open access,
 even though, as you correctly
 point out, it is usually
 not very hard to get hold
 of publications
 for
 free, even when they
 are not open access.
 What matters is that
 the people who need to
 read the publications can
 read them. There
 is absolutely no point
 in
 paying publishers up front to
 make the
 punlications available freely
 to everybody in the world, given
 that only
 a few
 people will ever
 need to read most of
 them!
  Somthing very dodgy
  is going on here - those who
 stand to gain
 financially from open
 access are lobbying hard in
 favour of it! No
 surprises there, really
 ...
  Stephen
 Â
 --------------------------------------------
  On Fri, 15/1/16, Elena
 Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
  wrote:
    Subject: Re:
 [Taxacom] Paywall our
 taxonomic tidbit
    To:
 "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
  <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
    Received: Friday, 15
 January, 2016,
 1:07
 PM
    Dear colleagues,
    I am really confused
 by now re what
 the
 point of this
    discussion is.
 Should we make our
 taxonomic papers open
    access
 or should we use our grant
 money to do so
 instead of
    paying
 for it out our own pockets? I
 honestly cannot
 see any
    paywall
 - whenever I need a paper, I
 just write to the
    author and ask for a
 pdf. I am happy
 to
 send my own papers
    to
 anybody who cares to read them
 (gosh, where is a
 chance
    they might even cite
 me ;) Besides,
 there
 is
    Researchgate...
    Best,
    Lena
    Dr. Elena
 Kupriyanova
    Senior Research
 Scientist
    Marine
 Invertebrates
 Â
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