[Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles

Mon Apr 27 09:38:58 CDT 2015

Very easy, Cuba is 40-70 million years old, and has 3 thousand not endemic species of angiosperms. Principle of biogeography: the species with large distribution probably  were not originated in the area.

For 60 million years are 50 species every one million years.

Antonio

Dr. Antonio López Almirall

Conservador del Herbario 

Museo Nacional de Historia Natural

Obispo 61, Plaza de Armas

Habana Vieja 10100, La Habana 

CUBA

Email cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu

De: John Grehan [mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com] 
Enviado el: domingo, 26 de abril de 2015 11:46 a. m.
Para: Dr. Antonio Lopez
CC: Anthony Gill; Stephen Thorpe; Karl Magnacca; Richard Pyle; TAXACOM
Asunto: Re: [Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles

I’m not so sure that the situation in biogeography is so complex in general. There are standard tracks, nodes and baselines. They have been extensively documented and none refuted. There are spatial correlations with geomorphology. These have been widely documented and none refuted. Some have objected to there being an informative relationship, but usually because of the misapplication of molecular clocks.

I would be interested to know the empirical basis for the predication that 40- 60 vegetable species have successfully colonized Cuba every million years. What is the basis for dating Quercus oleoides var sagraeana at less than a million years?

Cuba definitely has an interesting biogeography with key connections across the Pacific (not surprising given geologist’s predictions for a Pacific origin for some of the Cuban geology) and it is within one of the major biogeographic nodes of the world).

John Grehan

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Dr. Antonio Lopez <cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu <mailto:cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu> > wrote:

Biogeography is a synthesis science, in this science anything can be seen from the point of view of the biology or from the geography only. But in these cases we would have the history of the four blind ministers and the elephant. That makes everything much more complex, but we should assume it with that same complexity. For me, vicarianz and dispersal are two faces of the same coin, not different coins. The dispersal at big distances, without doubts is an exception. In accordance with my calculations to Cuba arrived between 40 and 60 vegetable successful species every million years, which is nothing. The oldest lineage that we have identified (as much for calculation as for DNA), Pinus tropicalis, is probably in the area before the rupture of Pangea and the most recent Quercus oleoides var sagraeana, a hybrid, has less than a million years. Both share the almost exact same distribution.

In the 60-70 millions of years of biggest Antilles, the events of massive extinction are recurrent and with them vicariant processes constants have taken place. Then came processes of adaptive radiation. All that which has generated species with mechanisms of adaptation to avoid the extinction of the linages. We have more than 2.5 thousand of endemic species (50% of our flora)

As a famous taxonomist, unfortunately already dead, wrote: a true taxonomic nightmares. I can say the same thing as biogeographist.

Dr. Antonio López Almirall

Conservador del Herbario 

Museo Nacional de Historia Natural

Obispo 61, Plaza de Armas

Habana Vieja 10100, La Habana 

CUBA

Email cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu <mailto:cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu> 

De: John Grehan [mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com <mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com> ] 
Enviado el: sábado, 25 de abril de 2015 09:56 p. m.
Para: Anthony Gill
CC: Stephen Thorpe; Karl Magnacca; Richard Pyle; TAXACOM; Dr. Antonio Lopez
Asunto: Re: [Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles

We already have plenty of monkeys - us.

John Grehan

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Anthony Gill <gill.anthony at gmail.com <mailto:gill.anthony at gmail.com> > wrote:

Well, I've just set up a bunch of monkeys on laptops. I'm not expecting Shakespeare's sonnets, but given enough time I'm hoping they'll knock out a decent taxonomic monograph or two. 

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 8:34 AM, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com <mailto:calabar.john at gmail.com> > wrote:

If Stephen's view of biogeography is that it is just a series of beliefs or assertions then there is certainly not much more to be said about that. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and there is no where further to go with that. But if one views biogeography as a science in the sense of applying methods of analysis (of geography and phylogeny) then one goes beyond just stating a personal belief to presenting a reasoned judgement or argument about the efficacy of particular methods and their results - as with any other science.

John Grehan

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz <mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> > wrote:

Biogeography is just a pompous "academic" (in the worst sense) waste of time! Putting aside, for present purposes, the vast issue of marine biogeography, chance transoceanic dispersal of terrestrials is *unlikely*, yes, but all that means is that it isn't going to happen lots of times in a short stretch of time. Given many millions of years, it can still happen often enough to be a significant factor. There seems to be a slide from "unlikely to happen" to "can't happen"! Any academic discipline which is based ultimately on chance events is not going to be very useful! Biogeography ... we don't need to know! The existence of sister taxa on adjacent islands (or other landmasses) can be explained equally well by dispersal (since dispersal is most likely to happen between adjacent landmasses) or by vicariance (since vicariance is most likely to happen between adjacent landmasses)!

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 26/4/15, Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org <mailto:deepreef at bishopmuseum.org> > wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles
 To: "'Anthony Gill'" <gill.anthony at gmail.com <mailto:gill.anthony at gmail.com> >, "'Karl Magnacca'" <kmagnacca at wesleyan.edu <mailto:kmagnacca at wesleyan.edu> >
 Cc: "'TAXACOM'" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> >, "'Dr. Antonio Lopez'" <cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu <mailto:cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu> >
 Received: Sunday, 26 April, 2015, 12:35 AM

 The same argument could
 be applied to ANY model of biogeography (dispersal,
 vicariance, panbiogeography, etc., etc.)  That is, any
 presumption that any single model accounts for every pattern
 (or even most patterns) is, in my opinion, naïve.  This is
 not to say that, in the end, one model does not dominate. 
 But we are SO, SO, SO far away from understanding both
 evolutionary history and the actual distribution patterns of
 most living things, that only people who don't really
 understand the nature of biodiversity make claims that we
 are close to fully understanding it.

 Aloha,
 Rich

 > -----Original
 Message-----
 > From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> ]
 On Behalf Of
 > Anthony Gill
 > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 1:12 AM
 > To: Karl Magnacca
 > Cc:
 TAXACOM; Dr. Antonio Lopez
 > Subject: Re:
 [Taxacom] Forgotting at the edge of miracles
 >
 > Of course, there are
 other from beyond panbiogeography that are concerned
 > that dispersal explanations should not be
 given a first-order explanation for
 >
 everything in biogeography. There is pattern to be
 discovered and explored. A
 > presumption
 of dispersal as an explanation for everything makes for
 > uninteresting, and ultimately irrelevant,
 research. I want no part of that.
 >
 > Tony
 >
 > On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Karl
 Magnacca
 > <kmagnacca at wesleyan.edu <mailto:kmagnacca at wesleyan.edu> >
 > wrote:
 >
 > > On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:24:32
 "Dr. Antonio Lopez"
 > >
 <cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu <mailto:cycas at mnhnc.inf.cu> >
 wrote:
 > > > Colleague:
 > > >
 > > >
 Thank you for the article of Head. Only when I read
 everything I am
 > > > able to
 understand and to reason. I never understood that
 supposed
 > > > difference between
 dispersalism and vicariancism as different
 > > > schools.
 >
 >
 > > That's because
 they're not.  It's only in the mind of
 panbiogeograpy
 > > supporters like
 Grehan and Heads, who promote the idea that because
 > > rare trans-oceanic dispersal is
 unlikely, that therefore it never
 > >
 happens (while simultaneously claiming that they say no such
 thing,
 > > invoking the undefined term
 "regular dispersal") that such a dichotomy
 > > exists.
 > >
 > > Karl
 > >
 > >
 _______________________________________________
 > > Taxacom Mailing List
 > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> 
 > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may
 be searched at:
 > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
 > >
 > > Celebrating
 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.
 > >
 >
 >
 >
 > --
 > Dr Anthony C. Gill
 >
 Natural History Curator
 > A12 Macleay
 Museum
 > University of Sydney
 > NSW 2006
 >
 Australia.
 >
 > Ph.
 +61 02 9036 6499 <tel:%2B61%2002%209036%206499> 
 >
 _______________________________________________
 > Taxacom Mailing List
 >
 Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> 
 > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
 searched at:
 > http://taxacom.markmail.org
 >
 > Celebrating 28 years
 of Taxacom in 2015.

 _______________________________________________
 Taxacom Mailing List
 Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> 
 http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
 searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org

 Celebrating 28 years of
 Taxacom in 2015.

_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List
Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> 
http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org

Celebrating 28 years of Taxacom in 2015.

-- 

Dr Anthony C. Gill

Natural History Curator

A12 Macleay Museum

University of Sydney

NSW 2006

Australia.

Ph. +61 02 9036 6499 <tel:%2B61%2002%209036%206499> 

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