[Taxacom] You have the right to ignore taxonomic publications, but no right to steal the work of others!

[Stephen Thorpe]

You haven't written that with sufficient clarity to be understood! What "advocacy"? How is science different from scientific method (except, perhaps, in having a sociological component)? You don't use scientific method (or anything like it) as far as I can see.
?
Stephen


________________________________
From: Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au>
To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>; "iczn-list at afriherp.org" <iczn-list at afriherp.org> 
Sent: Thursday, 17 April 2014 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: You have the right to ignore taxonomic publications, but no right to steal the work of others!



Stephen, thank you for your (in my view ill-informed) opinions (below).? At another time and place I may well and with some detail explain why you are wrong on several counts.? However here I make the point that you are confusing the following three things; science, scientific method and advocacy. It is that last two you have most seriously confused.? I also suggest that your most serious grievance about me?is in terms of the third of these (advocacy), rather than the others, although I have no doubt your view is the reverse.
I wish you well, no matter what your views of me but suggest your insults do not advance anything.
All the best
Raymond Hoser



Snakebusters? - Australia's best reptiles?
The only hands-on reptiles? shows that lets people hold the animals?.
Reptile parties?, events, courses
Phones: 9812 3322
0412 777 211

?


________________________________
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:02:25 -0700
From: stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Subject: Re: You have the right to ignore taxonomic publications, but no right to steal the work of others!
To: viper007 at live.com.au; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; iczn-list at afriherp.org
CC: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk; rwrossco at gmail.com; envirodata at hotmail.com; s.nikolaeva at nhm.ac.uk; h.cogger at bigpond.com; glenn.shea at sydney.edu.au; drtjhawkeswood at calodema.com; richard.funk at vcahospitals.com; dyanega at ucr.edu


Ray,
Actually you are right, it may not be chance. You may be a very intuitive herpetologist, whose taxonomic opinions are correct more often than not. But, here's the bit you just don't seem to understand: intuition is not science! Science is basically about convincing others that your intuitions are correct, using standard and agreed methods, which typically involve resources which you don't have. Anybody can publish their opinions, but if they aren't prepared to do the hard work to support those opinions scientifically, then nobody is going to be very interested. If anything, you are just giving away your intuitions for free to those who are prepared to do the work to prove or disprove them, but they are under no obligation to credit you with anything, not even the initial intuition. There are no "ownership rights" on intuitions, which is why it is usually a good idea to keep them to yourself until you can prove them to be correct, using science! I know it
 can be frustrating. I know vastly more about N.Z. beetles than I'll ever be able to prove scientifically. But that's life. The problem is that what you are doing runs the risk of actually giving your enemies exactly what they want, i.e. a mandate to ignore (without an ICZN ruling) other's available names. This could potentially seriously disadvantage any taxonomist who works outside powerful professional networks, many of whom make a very valuable contribution to taxonomy for relatively little monetary reward. For that reason, I consider you to be an insidious little misanthrope ..
Stephen


________________________________
From: Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au>
To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>; "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>; "iczn-list at afriherp.org" <iczn-list at afriherp.org> 
Cc: "w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk" <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>; "rwrossco at gmail.com" <rwrossco at gmail.com>; "envirodata at hotmail.com" <envirodata at hotmail.com>; "s.nikolaeva at nhm.ac.uk" <s.nikolaeva at nhm.ac.uk>; "h.cogger at bigpond.com" <h.cogger at bigpond.com>; "glenn.shea at sydney.edu.au" <glenn.shea at sydney.edu.au>; "drtjhawkeswood at calodema.com" <drtjhawkeswood at calodema.com>; "richard.funk at vcahospitals.com" <richard.funk at vcahospitals.com>; "dyanega at ucr.edu" <dyanega at ucr.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2014 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: You have the right to ignore taxonomic publications, but no right to steal the work of others!



Stephen you wrote:
"If any of your new names are valid, it is pretty much by pure chance."
That must make me a very lucky person indeed! Lets take a look at my first four papers shall we?
Names proposed in each are now commonly used in papers and books by others.
Maths is not my forte, but I think saying I am?just lucky stretches things....?



Snakebusters? - Australia's best reptiles?
The only hands-on reptiles? shows that lets people hold the animals?.
Reptile parties?, events, courses
Phones: 9812 3322
0412 777 211

?

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 00:35:10 -0700
> From: stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
> Subject: Re: You have the right to ignore taxonomic publications, but no right to steal the work of others!
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; iczn-list at afriherp.org; viper007 at live.com.au
> CC: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk; rwrossco at gmail.com; envirodata at hotmail.com; s.nikolaeva at nhm.ac.uk; viper007 at live.com.au; h.cogger at bigpond.com; glenn.shea at sydney.edu.au; drtjhawkeswood at calodema.com; richard.funk at vcahospitals.com; dyanega at ucr.edu
> 
> Ray,
> Let's get real shall we? Nobody wants to steal your work, because it isn't worth stealing. If any of your new names are valid, it is pretty much by pure chance. What makes it hard to ignore your publications, as you yourself say we have a right to do, is that you create new names in a (prima facie) Code compliant way. This has nothing to do with science. We all do ignore your attempts at science, but nomenclature cannot be ignored if it is Code compliant. All your names have to be placed somewhere in the reptile system by herpetologists who know what they are doing. This is a waste of their time, and they resent you for it. Them's the facts, go figure ...
> Cheers,
> Stephen
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 16/4/14, Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman <viper007 at live.com.au> wrote:
> 
> Subject: You have the right to ignore taxonomic publications, but no right to steal the work of others!
> To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "iczn-list at afriherp.org" <iczn-list at afriherp.org>
> Cc: "w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk" <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>, "stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "rwrossco at gmail.com" <rwrossco at gmail.com>, "envirodata at hotmail.com" <envirodata at hotmail.com>, "s.nikolaeva at nhm.ac.uk" <s.nikolaeva at nhm.ac.uk>, "Raymond Hoser - The Snakeman" <viper007 at live.com.au>, "h.cogger at bigpond.com" <h.cogger at bigpond.com>, "glenn.shea at sydney.edu.au" <glenn.shea at sydney.edu.au>, "drtjhawkeswood at calodema.com" <drtjhawkeswood at calodema.com>, "richard.funk at vcahospitals.com" <richard.funk at vcahospitals.com>, "dyanega at ucr.edu" <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Received: Wednesday, 16 April, 2014, 7:23 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wolfgang, (refer
> below) please let us not sidestep the real issue of the
> last 16 years.
> 
> You?
> (and everyone else), have always had the right to ignore my
> taxonomy and my (Hoser) publications.? You have never been denied
> this!
> 
> We call this by way
> of "synonymy" and in 2001, that is exactly what
> you
> forcefully argued and for a few short years due to the scale
> of your commentary, with a great deal of success.
> 
> See here:
> 
> http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pdf/menu2/littserp.pdf
> 
> By 2008, that
> argument failed and my names for what you
> alleged in 2001 and earlier were ?non-taxa? in all the
> relevant papers were in widespread use due
> to acceptance of my science rather than your own lack of it
> (e.g. Acanthophis wellsei, Leiopython hoserae, Broghammerus,
> Pseudechis (pailsus) pailsei, Pseudechis (Pailsus)
> rossignollii and so on).
> 
> So now in your
> final ?all or nothing? gambit, you blatantly
> seek to have all my publications spanning many years
> declared invalid by the
> ICZN in a move without successful precedent (and for good
> reason) (although
> your caper has been tried in the past with Wells and
> Wellington in the 1980?s) to
> give you and your associates the right to steal my work and
> that of Wells,
> McCord and others in your published hit lists and to rename
> the very same
> critters using the very same evidence in what until now has
> been for good
> reason contrary to the nomenclature code.
> See here:
> https://www.academia.edu/3065153/Kaiser_H._B.I._Crother_C.M.R._Kelly_L._Luiselli_M._OShea_H._Ota_P._Passos_W.D._Schleip_W._Wuster_2013_Best_practices_in_the_21st_century_taxonomic_decisions_in_herpetology_are_acceptable_only_when_supported_by_a_body_of_evidence_and_published_via_peer-review._Herp._Rev._44_8-23
> 
> All the
> best?
> 
> ?[Taxacom] [iczn-list]
> provisions to the CodeWolfgang Wuster w.wuster
> at bangor.ac.uk 
> Wed Apr 16 01:32:07 CDT 2014 Previous
> message: [Taxacom]
> [iczn-list] provisions to the Code Next
> message: [Taxacom]
> [iczn-list] provisions to the Code Messages
> sorted by: [
> date ] [
> thread ] [
> subject ] [
> author ] 
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe
> at yahoo.co.nz>
> Sent: 16 April 2014 07:23
> To: Wolfgang Wuster; taxacom
> at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code
> 
> > Now who is being semantic! It is tantamount to
> censorship. Hoser is
> > considered offensive, and so he is being
> removed!
> 
> No, he is not. His right to an unwilling audience is.
> 
> 
> > At any rate, the answer to the Hoser problem is
> simple, but will the ICZN
> > have the good sense to do it? They don't
> need to sit in judgement of his
> > taxonomy. All they need do is deem his journal
> AJH to be an invalid
> > publication. This has the advantage of allowing
> Hoser to submit to regular
> > peer-reviewed journals if he so wishes, like the
> rest of us, and be judged
> > like the rest of us by his peers.
> 
> Agreed on all counts (!).
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> From: Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster
> at bangor.ac.uk>
> To: "taxacom
> at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom
> at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2014 6:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code
> 
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: taxacom-bounces
> at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces
> at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> <taxacom-bounces
> at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces
> at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> on behalf of Neal Evenhuis
> <neale
> at bishopmuseum.org<mailto:neale
> at bishopmuseum.org>>
> Sent: 15 April 2014 23:12
> To: Stephen Thorpe; Doug Yanega; taxacom
> at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom
> at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code
> 
> 
> > But to get back to the crux of the matter. Some on
> the list want to nix
> > what Hoser has done because they claim the
> specimen (with a specimen
> > number) that he specifically designated
> "did not exist". That is hogwash.
> > And is bordering on censorship, in my opinion.
> 
> I think we need to stop this talk of censorship.
> 
> According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, "to
> censor" is defined as "to examine books, movies,
> letters, etc., in order to remove things that are considered
> to be offensive, immoral, harmful to society, etc."
> 
> Nobody is proposing to do such a thing.
> 
> However, there is a difference between the right to free
> expression and the right to be taken seriously. The former
> is (in my book) absolute, the latter does not exist. The
> problem is that the letter of the Code seeks to bestow that
> non-existing latter right on the authors of names
> irrespective of merit. That's what many who consider
> themselves scientists first and nomenclaturists second have
> a problem with. However, that does not constitute
> censorship.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
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> Snakebusters?
> - Australia's best reptiles?
> 
> The only hands-on reptiles?
> shows that lets people hold the animals?.
> 
> Reptile parties?,
> events, courses
> Phones: 9812 3322
> 
> 0412 777 211
> 
>