[Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code

Wed Apr 16 17:42:15 CDT 2014

>What a weird and useless solution. If taxonomists are "measured" by their number of publications, allowing Hoser to publish names for groups and species discovered by others would diminish the amount of publications the discoverers get, lessening their "status" by the very measurement you propose. How is that sensible?<
?
It is sensible because Hoser's publications have little or no scientific content, only nomenclatural content, so others can still publish on the same taxa, but with actual scientific content (even if it is just better descriptions, albeit "redescriptions"). Besides, I don't think Hoser is necessarily naming taxa "discovered by others". Hoser probably does recognise them himself as new taxa, but just can't do the science properly to back up his opinions (he is perhaps, so to speak, scientifically impotent).
?
Neverthess, I do agree with you that systematists should never publish on undescribed taxa. It doesn't take much to name them (hell, even Hoser can do it!)
?
Stephen

________________________________
From: Daniel Leo Gustafsson <kotatsu.no.leo at gmail.com>
To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, 17 April 2014 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code

What a weird and useless solution. If taxonomists are "measured" by their
number of publications, allowing Hoser to publish names for groups and
species discovered by others would diminish the amount of publications the
discoverers get, lessening their "status" by the very measurement you
propose. How is that sensible?

An actually sensible solution would be not to publish any phylogenies that
include any novel (at least) genus-or-above groupings without naming and
describing these, with only enough detail to be valid, in the same
publication. Submit this only when a more detailed morphological paper has
been made ready and can be submitted (and hopefully published) more or less
simultaneously. This will mean that all taxa will already have names when
Hoser (or anyone else) can get their hands on them, and if not, will at
least minimize the time between publication of the phylogenies from which
Hoser harvests new taxa and the publication of descriptions of these taxa
by the people who actually discovered them. It must take some considerable
time to write those rants against the government and other taxonomists that
Hoser pads out his publications with, so the shorter amount of time that
passes between publications the better.

This solution will take a bit longer, but still (theoretically) result in
the same amount of publications, with the added potential benefit that the
new names will generally be referred to publications that are more widely
read.

Leo

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Stephen Thorpe
<stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>wrote:

> Wolfgang,
> You eloquent words hide your true motives to some extent, me thinks! It is
> clear to me that your primary frustration is based on Hoser preempting taxa
> which may turn out to be valid and cheaply creating names for these taxa
> which (rather misleadingly) carry his name as taxon authority. I can
> understand your frustration about this, but I don't see it as a serious
> issue. After all, no taxonomist gets paid by the number of new taxa they
> describe. Instead they are measured, rightly or wrongly, by their citation
> rate and number of publications. If you were completely sensible, you would
> just let Hoser be "the name guy", freeing you of doing the naming yourself.
> You can focus on publishing really high quality redescriptions,
> phylogenetic analyses, etc., etc. Hoser isn't going to get any real benefit
> from any citations his publications get, as he is not employed in academia
> (maybe he can promote himself!)
> Cheers,
> Stephen
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
> To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, 17 April 2014 6:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code
>
>
> Well, I certainly commiserate with the coleopterologists out there.
>
> However, it does beg the deeper question of why on Earth we are putting up
> with a system that inflicts tens of thousands of names emanating from
> unscientific outputs upon us. Is this really the best that a system with
> "standards, sense and stability for animal names" as its aims can do? And
> should we be accepting "because that's how it's always been" as the sole
> justification for tolerating it forever more?
>
> I'm afraid I find that level of resignation immeasurably depressing. And I
> envy bacterial taxonomists?.
>
> Wolfgang
>
> ________________________________________
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <
> taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of Michael A. Ivie <
> mivie at montana.edu>
> Sent: 16 April 2014 19:06
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code
>
> OK, everyone step back and breath.? This is not that simple.? How much
> worse is AJH than Calodema?? How much worse is Calodema than M?langes
> Exotico-Entomologiques? Than L'?change?? Those last 2 journals,
> privately published by the author of tens of thousands of poorly
> documented species were proposed for suppression decades ago, and that
> was voted down.? What about the allegedly back-dated "Cicindelidae:
> Bulletin of Worldwide Research"?? If I remember correctly, some
> Scandinavian acarologist who published a large number of very poor
> descriptions ordered his types all destroyed upon his death.
> Herpetologists have probably never heard of these other journals/cases
> and don't care about them, but the the same applies by
> non-herpetologists about AJH.? Once you decide that AJH is so bad it has
> to be placed on the list of rejected works in its entirety, what about
> the next-worst?? And, the next worst?? Every sub-discipline has a
> journal or person that they think is the worst.? This proposal will
> never pass, with good, practical reasons.
>
> Today, declaring an entire journal with a living editor to be placed on
> the list of rejected publications will do nothing.? Next week a newly
> named journal will appear and revalidate all the names. Rejecting the
> names one by one would be a better solution, although I do not see
> anything to keep them from being repeated next week as well.? As for
> extending the ban into the future, to invalidate works not yet published
> is indeed censorship.? We call it a gag rule.? I am wondering if any
> work by a living author has ever been placed on the rejected list
> contrary to their wishes?? Has it ever been done that names proposed by
> a certain person are placed on the rejected list for simply being named
> by that person, both those already published and those that may be
> published in the future?? When a work is placed on the rejected list, a
> reason is given, Geoffroy for not being consistently binomial, etc.
> What reason will be given for AJH?? "Unpopular Editor" would be pretty
> weak in a 100 years.
>
> If coleopterists can survive 38,000 Pic names, herpetologists can
> survive a mere 600 Hoser names.? And yes, the Macrochelys is valid. Live
> with it.
>
> Mike (who swore he was not getting into this)
>
> On 4/16/2014 1:16 AM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> > Hold on, it would still solve many of the problems, as he cannot publish
> again giving the names the same priority. It would at least solve the
> Macrochelys case.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Wed, 16/4/14, Philipp Wagner <philipp.wagner.zfmk at uni-bonn.de> wrote:
> >
> >? Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code
> >? To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "Wolfgang Wuster" <
> w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >? Received: Wednesday, 16 April, 2014, 6:41 AM
> >
> >? > All they need do is deem his
> >? journal AJH to be an invalid publication.
> >
> >? That would be great - but it would not stop him. In a time
> >? where it is so extremly easy to run a self-published
> >? e-journal he would just rename it and publish everything
> >? again.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >? >
> >? >
> >? > ________________________________
> >? > From: Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
> >? > To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> >? <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >? Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2014 6:10 PM
> >? > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the
> >? Code
> >? >
> >? >
> >? >
> >? > ________________________________________
> >? > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >? <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >? on behalf of Neal Evenhuis <neale at bishopmuseum.org>
> >? > Sent: 15 April 2014 23:12
> >? > To: Stephen Thorpe; Doug Yanega; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >? > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the
> >? Code
> >? >
> >? >
> >? >> But to get back to the crux of the matter. Some on
> >? the list want to nix
> >? >> what Hoser has done because they claim the specimen
> >? (with a specimen
> >? >> number) that he specifically designated "did not
> >? exist". That is hogwash.
> >? >> And is bordering on censorship, in my opinion.
> >? >
> >? > I think we need to stop this talk of censorship.
> >? >
> >? > According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, "to
> >? censor" is defined as "to examine books, movies, letters,
> >? etc., in order to remove things that are considered to be
> >? offensive, immoral, harmful to society, etc."
> >? >
> >? > Nobody is proposing to do such a thing.
> >? >
> >? > However, there is a difference between the right to
> >? free expression and the right to be taken seriously. The
> >? former is (in my book) absolute, the latter does not exist.
> >? The problem is that the letter of the Code seeks to bestow
> >? that non-existing latter right on the authors of names
> >? irrespective of merit. That's what many who consider
> >? themselves scientists first and nomenclaturists second have
> >? a problem with. However, that does not constitute
> >? censorship.
> >? >
> >? > Cheers,
> >? >
> >? > Wolfgang
> >? >
> >? >
> >? > Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 - Registered Charity
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> >? ----------------------------------------
> >? Dr. Philipp Wagner
> >? [www.philippwagner.net]
> >
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>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> Montana Entomology Collection
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> Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014. 

>
>
>
> Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 - Registered Charity No. 1141565
>
> Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys
> deunydd cyfrinachol ac wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y
> cawsant eu cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost hon
> trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i'r anfonwr ar unwaith a dilewch y neges. Os
> na fwriadwyd anfon y neges atoch chi, rhaid i chi beidio a defnyddio, cadw
> neu ddatgelu unrhyw wybodaeth a gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu
> safbwynt yn eiddo i'r sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid yn
> cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol Bangor yn gwarantu bod
> y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw atodiadau yn rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn
> ddiogel. Oni bai fod hyn wedi ei ddatgan yn uniongyrchol yn nhestun yr
> e-bost, nid bwriad y neges e-bost hon yw ffurfio contract rhwymol - mae
> rhestr o lofnodwyr awdurdodedig ar gael o Swyddfa Cyllid Prifysgol Bangor.
>
> This email and any attachments may contain confidential material and is
> solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you have received this
> email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email.
> If you are not the intended recipient(s), you must not use, retain or
> disclose any information contained in this email. Any views or opinions are
> solely those of the sender and do not necessarily represent those of Bangor
> University. Bangor University does not guarantee that this email or any
> attachments are free from viruses or 100% secure. Unless expressly stated
> in the body of the text of the email, this email is not intended to form a
> binding contract - a list of authorised signatories is available from the
> Bangor University Finance Office.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
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>
> Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> _______________________________________________
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>
> Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>
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