[Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code

Wed Apr 16 16:49:42 CDT 2014

Wolfgang,
You eloquent words hide your true motives to some extent, me thinks! It is clear to me that your primary frustration is based on Hoser preempting taxa which may turn out to be valid and cheaply creating names for these taxa which (rather misleadingly) carry his name as taxon authority. I can understand your frustration about this, but I don't see it as a serious issue. After all, no taxonomist gets paid by the number of new taxa they describe. Instead they are measured, rightly or wrongly, by their citation rate and number of publications. If you were completely sensible, you would just let Hoser be "the name guy", freeing you of doing the naming yourself. You can focus on publishing really high quality redescriptions, phylogenetic analyses, etc., etc. Hoser isn't going to get any real benefit from any citations his publications get, as he is not employed in academia (maybe he can promote himself!)
Cheers,
Stephen

________________________________
From: Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, 17 April 2014 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code

Well, I certainly commiserate with the coleopterologists out there.

However, it does beg the deeper question of why on Earth we are putting up with a system that inflicts tens of thousands of names emanating from unscientific outputs upon us. Is this really the best that a system with "standards, sense and stability for animal names" as its aims can do? And should we be accepting "because that's how it's always been" as the sole? justification for tolerating it forever more?

I'm afraid I find that level of resignation immeasurably depressing. And I envy bacterial taxonomists?.

Wolfgang

________________________________________
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
Sent: 16 April 2014 19:06
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code

OK, everyone step back and breath.? This is not that simple.? How much
worse is AJH than Calodema?? How much worse is Calodema than M?langes
Exotico-Entomologiques? Than L'?change?? Those last 2 journals,
privately published by the author of tens of thousands of poorly
documented species were proposed for suppression decades ago, and that
was voted down.? What about the allegedly back-dated "Cicindelidae:
Bulletin of Worldwide Research"?? If I remember correctly, some
Scandinavian acarologist who published a large number of very poor
descriptions ordered his types all destroyed upon his death.
Herpetologists have probably never heard of these other journals/cases
and don't care about them, but the the same applies by
non-herpetologists about AJH.? Once you decide that AJH is so bad it has
to be placed on the list of rejected works in its entirety, what about
the next-worst?? And, the next worst?? Every sub-discipline has a
journal or person that they think is the worst.? This proposal will
never pass, with good, practical reasons.

Today, declaring an entire journal with a living editor to be placed on
the list of rejected publications will do nothing.? Next week a newly
named journal will appear and revalidate all the names. Rejecting the
names one by one would be a better solution, although I do not see
anything to keep them from being repeated next week as well.? As for
extending the ban into the future, to invalidate works not yet published
is indeed censorship.? We call it a gag rule.? I am wondering if any
work by a living author has ever been placed on the rejected list
contrary to their wishes?? Has it ever been done that names proposed by
a certain person are placed on the rejected list for simply being named
by that person, both those already published and those that may be
published in the future?? When a work is placed on the rejected list, a
reason is given, Geoffroy for not being consistently binomial, etc.
What reason will be given for AJH?? "Unpopular Editor" would be pretty
weak in a 100 years.

If coleopterists can survive 38,000 Pic names, herpetologists can
survive a mere 600 Hoser names.? And yes, the Macrochelys is valid. Live
with it.

Mike (who swore he was not getting into this)

On 4/16/2014 1:16 AM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> Hold on, it would still solve many of the problems, as he cannot publish again giving the names the same priority. It would at least solve the Macrochelys case.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 16/4/14, Philipp Wagner <philipp.wagner.zfmk at uni-bonn.de> wrote:
>
>? Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the Code
>? To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "Wolfgang Wuster" <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>? Received: Wednesday, 16 April, 2014, 6:41 AM
>
>? > All they need do is deem his
>? journal AJH to be an invalid publication.
>
>? That would be great - but it would not stop him. In a time
>? where it is so extremly easy to run a self-published
>? e-journal he would just rename it and publish everything
>? again.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>? >
>? >
>? > ________________________________
>? > From: Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
>? > To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
>? <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>? Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2014 6:10 PM
>? > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the
>? Code
>? >
>? >
>? >
>? > ________________________________________
>? > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>? <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>? on behalf of Neal Evenhuis <neale at bishopmuseum.org>
>? > Sent: 15 April 2014 23:12
>? > To: Stephen Thorpe; Doug Yanega; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>? > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] [iczn-list] provisions to the
>? Code
>? >
>? >
>? >> But to get back to the crux of the matter. Some on
>? the list want to nix
>? >> what Hoser has done because they claim the specimen
>? (with a specimen
>? >> number) that he specifically designated "did not
>? exist". That is hogwash.
>? >> And is bordering on censorship, in my opinion.
>? >
>? > I think we need to stop this talk of censorship.
>? >
>? > According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, "to
>? censor" is defined as "to examine books, movies, letters,
>? etc., in order to remove things that are considered to be
>? offensive, immoral, harmful to society, etc."
>? >
>? > Nobody is proposing to do such a thing.
>? >
>? > However, there is a difference between the right to
>? free expression and the right to be taken seriously. The
>? former is (in my book) absolute, the latter does not exist.
>? The problem is that the letter of the Code seeks to bestow
>? that non-existing latter right on the authors of names
>? irrespective of merit. That's what many who consider
>? themselves scientists first and nomenclaturists second have
>? a problem with. However, that does not constitute
>? censorship.
>? >
>? > Cheers,
>? >
>? > Wolfgang
>? >
>? >
>? > Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 - Registered Charity
>? No. 1141565
>? >
>? > Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw atodiadau a anfonwyd
>? gyda hi, gynnwys deunydd cyfrinachol ac wedi eu bwriadu i'w
>? defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y cawsant eu cyfeirio ato
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>? beidio a defnyddio, cadw neu ddatgelu unrhyw wybodaeth a
>? gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu safbwynt yn eiddo i'r
>? sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid yn
>? cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol Bangor
>? yn gwarantu bod y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw atodiadau yn
>? rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn ddiogel. Oni bai fod hyn wedi
>? ei ddatgan yn uniongyrchol yn nhestun yr e-bost, nid bwriad
>? y neges e-bost hon yw ffurfio contract rhwymol - mae rhestr
>? o lofnodwyr awdurdodedig ar gael o Swyddfa Cyllid Prifysgol
>? Bangor.
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>? > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>
>? ----------------------------------------
>? Dr. Philipp Wagner
>? [www.philippwagner.net]
>
>? Research Associate:
>? Department of Biology
>? Villanova University
>? 800 Lancaster Avenue
>? Villanova, Pennsylvania 19085, USA
>
>? Home Institution:
>? Zoologisches Forschungsmuseum Alexander Koenig
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>
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> .
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--
__________________________________________________

Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.

Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
Montana State University
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USA

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Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014. 

Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 - Registered Charity No. 1141565

Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys deunydd cyfrinachol ac wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y cawsant eu cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost hon trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i'r anfonwr ar unwaith a dilewch y neges. Os na fwriadwyd anfon y neges atoch chi, rhaid i chi beidio a defnyddio, cadw neu ddatgelu unrhyw wybodaeth a gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu safbwynt yn eiddo i'r sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid yn cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol Bangor yn gwarantu bod y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw atodiadau yn rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn ddiogel. Oni bai fod hyn wedi ei ddatgan yn uniongyrchol yn nhestun yr e-bost, nid bwriad y neges e-bost hon yw ffurfio contract rhwymol - mae rhestr o lofnodwyr awdurdodedig ar gael o Swyddfa Cyllid Prifysgol Bangor.

This email and any attachments may contain confidential material and is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you must not use, retain or disclose any information contained in this email. Any views or opinions are solely those of the sender and do not necessarily represent those of Bangor University. Bangor University does not guarantee that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or 100% secure. Unless expressly stated in the body of the text of the email, this email is not intended to form a binding contract - a list of authorised signatories is available from the Bangor University Finance Office.

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Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.