[Taxacom] Taxacom Digest, Vol 97, Issue 7
Alain Dubois
adbionomina at gmail.com
Mon Apr 7 12:42:07 CDT 2014
2014
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
Dear all,
There indeed* is* a detailed program of the meeting. It is quite long, so I
did not post it on this forum, but I stated clearly that we would send it
to any colleague interested to attend, or just to know more about it.
Our paper on electronic publications and related matters, by 19 authors
including several Zootaxa editors, is available as open access on the
Zootaxa website. It is not difficult to see that many points raised in this
paper were not addressed in the Commission's rebuttal which only tackles a
few of them. There are other problems of several kinds with this rebuttal,
that we will discuss later.
Once again, the purpose of the Linz meeting is not to make a complete
discussion of the questions raised, but to prepare a roadmap for a special
issue of Bionomina where these questions will be addressed, and where
different, and sometimes certainly contradictory, points of view, will be
freely expressed. So interested colleagues are invited to contact us if
they think they have something to say about these questions.
We think the preparation of a new edition of the Code is a very important
issue for all taxonomists and even biologists, that should be discussed
freely, without censorship, in *published* contributions, that will remain
available in the future (as was the case at the time of Hemming in the
BZN) and not only online. This is why we created Bionomina, as an open
uncensored forum, without page limitations, to discuss these matters fully.
We think nobody should be afraid of discussions, and that science often
progresses through confrontation of different points of view, not through
having a dogm, edicted by a few, that everybody should follow blindly.
Best wishes,
Alain
____________________________________
Professeur Alain Dubois
Mus?um National d'Histoire Naturelle
Institut Syst?matique, Evolution, Biodiversit? (ISYEB) - UMR 7205
Reptiles & Amphibiens
CP 30
25 rue Cuvier
75005 Paris
France
emails: <adbionomina at gmail.com>, <adpeerj at gmail.com>, <adubois at mnhn.fr>
Chief Editor, Bionomina
<http://www.mapress.com/bionomina>
Nomenclature Editor, Zootaxa
<http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/>
Academic Editor, PeerJ
<https://peerj.com>
____________________________________
"La culture ce n'est pas avoir le cerveau farci de dates, de noms ou de
chiffres, c'est la qualit? du jugement, l'exigence logique, l'app?tit de la
preuve, la notion de la complexit? des choses et de l'arduit? des
probl?mes. C'est l'habitude du doute, le discernement dans la m?fiance, la
modestie d'opinion, la patience d'ignorer, la certitude qu'on n'a jamais
tout le vrai en partage; c'est avoir l'esprit ferme sans l'avoir rigide,
c'est ?tre arm? contre le flou et aussi contre la fausse pr?cision, c'est
refuser tous les fanatismes et jusqu'? ceux qui s'autorisent de la raison;
c'est suspecter les dogmatismes officiels mais sans profit pour les
charlatans, c'est r?v?rer le g?nie mais sans en faire une idole, c'est
toujours pr?f?rer ce qui est ? ce qu'on pr?f?rerait qui f?t."
(Jean Rostand, Le droit d'?tre naturaliste, 1963).
"L'id?e de commander et d'?tre ob?i est le propre d'une mentalit?
infantile. Cela explique que les dictateurs soient des gens immatures."
(Jorge Luis Borges, "L'id?e de fronti?res et de nations me para?t absurde",
Le Monde Diplomatique, ao?t 2001).
___________________________________
2014-04-07 19:00 GMT+02:00 <taxacom-request at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>:
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
>
> When responding to a message in a digest package, please do not copy the
> entire digest into your reply as it is tedious for your readers to scroll
> through pages of unrelated material and older replies. Many thanks!
> ____________________________________
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography) (Richard Pyle)
> 2. Re: Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography) (Weakley, Alan)
> 3. Re: Taxacom Digest, Vol 97, Issue 6 (Alain Dubois)
> 4. Re: Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography) (John Grehan)
> 5. Re: Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
> (Michael A. Ivie)
> 6. Re: Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
> (Doug Yanega)
> 7. On panbiogeography (robinwbruce at aol.com)
> 8. Re: Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
> (Michael A. Ivie)
> 9. Re: Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
> (Frank.Krell at dmns.org)
> 10. Re: Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
> (Doug Yanega)
> 11. Re: Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography) (Curtis Clark)
> 12. Job announcements: Associate Professor in Systematic Botany &
> Associate Professor in Vertebrate Zoology (Jenny Smedmark)
> 13. Re: Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography) (Michael Heads)
> 14. trans-Atlantic "rafting" fish (great candidate) (Ken Kinman)
> 15. Re: trans-Atlantic "rafting" fish (great candidate) (John Grehan)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 07:12:54 -1000
> From: "Richard Pyle" <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
> Subject: [Taxacom] Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography)
> To: "'Michael Heads'" <m.j.heads at gmail.com>, "'JF Mate'"
> <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> Cc: 'Taxacom' <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID: <002401cf51bb$7431f900$5c95eb00$@bishopmuseum.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've only been partially paying attention to this thread, but Jason's
> recent
> post (which captured my own general perspective nicely) has encouraged me
> to
> ask some questions:
>
> 1) Does everyone agree that there is ample evidence that some populations
> of
> organisms have been fractioned via rare vicariant events, leading to
> reproductive isolation and subsequent divergence and, ultimately,
> speciation?
>
> 2) Does everyone agree that there is ample evidence that some populations
> of
> organisms have been fractioned via rare dispersal events, leading to
> reproductive isolation and subsequent divergence and, ultimately,
> speciation?
>
> If anyone's answer to either question is "No", I would like to hear an
> explicit statement of such, accompanied by explanations that counter the
> aforementioned ample evidence (which has been, and could easily be,
> provided
> by members of this list) in specific, individual situations.
>
> If we all agree that the answer to both questions is "Yes", then can
> someone
> explain what this seemingly never-ending debate is really about? Is it
> simply about the relative frequency of each mechanism, across broader
> biodiversity, that has historically resulted in reproductively isolated
> populations and subsequent speciation? If so, then the next question is:
>
> 3) Are we arguing about 95/5 one way or the other, or more like 60/40 one
> way or the other?
>
> Some additional questions:
>
> 4) Is anyone willing to step up to the plate to discuss cases where
> speciation seems to have occurred in the absence of geographic isolation
> (i.e., no dispersal or vicariant events required)?
>
> 5) Does someone want to take a stab at defining the scope of "broader
> biodiversity" alluded to in the preamble to question #3 above? (There seems
> to be a lot of focus on terrestrial vertebrates and plants -- does the
> debate also include marine organisms? What about insects? Microbes? Can
> vicariance or dispersal explain patterns of bacteria diversity?)
>
> 6) Imagine a hypothetical(?) situation where infrequent events like global
> glaciation cycles cause substantial sea-level changes, which have dramatic
> impact to ocean currents and thereby shifts in patterns of dispersal
> potential/frequency among marine organisms with planktonic larvae -- such
> that geographically disjoint populations that have high potential gene flow
> during long periods of time, undergo long periods of time with very low
> potential gene flow. In such cases, where speciation results during the
> low-gene-flow periods, do we score a point for vicariance, or for
> dispersal?
>
> Aloha,
> Rich
>
>
> Richard L. Pyle, PhD
> Database Coordinator for Natural Sciences
> Associate Zoologist in Ichthyology
> Vicariant Dispersalist
> Dive Safety Officer
> Department of Natural Sciences, Bishop Museum
> 1525 Bernice St., Honolulu, HI 96817
> Ph: (808)848-4115, Fax: (808)847-8252
> email: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/staff/pylerichard.html
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> > bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Heads
> > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 12:17 AM
> > To: JF Mate
> > Cc: Taxacom
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> >
> > Hi Jason,
> >
> > Getting back to the facts, a taxacomer just sent me a classic that I
> hadn't
> > spotted: a chameleon on Socotra that has a diverse sister group
> widespread
> > through the Sahel (Mali to Somalia), around the Mediterranean, Saudi
> Arabia
> > and east to India (not on Socotra). It's in Macey et al., 2008 Mol
> Phylogen Evol
> > 49: 1015.
> >
> > This is the sort of thing you see in many groups in the Caribbean and the
> SW
> > Pacific. It's very simple to explain the pattern by an early break in a
> > widespread ancestor, somewhere around Socotra. If you want to explain it
> > by the usual dispersal from the mainland, you have to bring in other, ad
> hoc
> > hypotheses. But the main point is just how starkly and beautifully it
> highlights
> > the significance of Socotra, whatever the actual mechanism.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 7:08 PM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Ken. Sorry for replying so late but i am currently travelling
> around.
> > > Your optimism is refreshing but ultimately a waste of effort. There is
> > > no evidence that you can offer them that will satisfy them because you
> > > don't know (or them I suspect) what they are arguing against. Whereas
> > > you, I or most others can accept vicariance and dispersal as
> > > mechanisms (and have said so repeatedly) we are labelled dispersalists.
> Go
> > figure.
> > > When you show them clear, factual evidence of organisms being sent
> > > across the ocean, these events are either "too frequent" or so
> > > infrequent that the probabilities cannot be calculated and therefore
> > > no different to astrology (so much for only being interested in data).
> > > What you will never be shown are the definitions under which they
> > > operate. Funny since they are interested in patterns and this requires
> > > some sort of operational definitions. But when a man's livelihood
> > > depends on not understanding something, then they won't, no matter
> > what you say.
> > > "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how
> > > smart you are. If it doesn't agred with experiment, it's wrong." Stuff
> > > can cross oceans, let them fight facts if they want. I have critters to
> catch.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Jason
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My recent books:
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics.* 2012. University of
> California
> > Press, Berkeley. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn80520271968
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. 2014. Cambridge
> > University Press, Cambridge. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 17:20:18 +0000
> From: "Weakley, Alan" <weakley at bio.unc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography)
> To: Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>, 'Michael Heads'
> <m.j.heads at gmail.com>, 'JF Mate' <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> Cc: 'Taxacom' <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <DA4E4B8E9FF99A4A83FFF97C6669FDA99A975ECD at ITS-MSXMBS2F.ad.unc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Here, here!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:
> taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Pyle
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 1:13 PM
> To: 'Michael Heads'; 'JF Mate'
> Cc: 'Taxacom'
> Subject: [Taxacom] Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography)
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've only been partially paying attention to this thread, but Jason's
> recent post (which captured my own general perspective nicely) has
> encouraged me to ask some questions:
>
> 1) Does everyone agree that there is ample evidence that some populations
> of organisms have been fractioned via rare vicariant events, leading to
> reproductive isolation and subsequent divergence and, ultimately,
> speciation?
>
> 2) Does everyone agree that there is ample evidence that some populations
> of organisms have been fractioned via rare dispersal events, leading to
> reproductive isolation and subsequent divergence and, ultimately,
> speciation?
>
> If anyone's answer to either question is "No", I would like to hear an
> explicit statement of such, accompanied by explanations that counter the
> aforementioned ample evidence (which has been, and could easily be,
> provided by members of this list) in specific, individual situations.
>
> If we all agree that the answer to both questions is "Yes", then can
> someone explain what this seemingly never-ending debate is really about?
> Is it simply about the relative frequency of each mechanism, across
> broader biodiversity, that has historically resulted in reproductively
> isolated populations and subsequent speciation? If so, then the next
> question is:
>
> 3) Are we arguing about 95/5 one way or the other, or more like 60/40 one
> way or the other?
>
> Some additional questions:
>
> 4) Is anyone willing to step up to the plate to discuss cases where
> speciation seems to have occurred in the absence of geographic isolation
> (i.e., no dispersal or vicariant events required)?
>
> 5) Does someone want to take a stab at defining the scope of "broader
> biodiversity" alluded to in the preamble to question #3 above? (There seems
> to be a lot of focus on terrestrial vertebrates and plants -- does the
> debate also include marine organisms? What about insects? Microbes? Can
> vicariance or dispersal explain patterns of bacteria diversity?)
>
> 6) Imagine a hypothetical(?) situation where infrequent events like global
> glaciation cycles cause substantial sea-level changes, which have dramatic
> impact to ocean currents and thereby shifts in patterns of dispersal
> potential/frequency among marine organisms with planktonic larvae -- such
> that geographically disjoint populations that have high potential gene flow
> during long periods of time, undergo long periods of time with very low
> potential gene flow. In such cases, where speciation results during the
> low-gene-flow periods, do we score a point for vicariance, or for dispersal?
>
> Aloha,
> Rich
>
>
> Richard L. Pyle, PhD
> Database Coordinator for Natural Sciences Associate Zoologist in
> Ichthyology Vicariant Dispersalist Dive Safety Officer Department of
> Natural Sciences, Bishop Museum
> 1525 Bernice St., Honolulu, HI 96817
> Ph: (808)848-4115, Fax: (808)847-8252
> email: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/staff/pylerichard.html
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> > bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Heads
> > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 12:17 AM
> > To: JF Mate
> > Cc: Taxacom
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> >
> > Hi Jason,
> >
> > Getting back to the facts, a taxacomer just sent me a classic that I
> hadn't
> > spotted: a chameleon on Socotra that has a diverse sister group
> > widespread through the Sahel (Mali to Somalia), around the
> > Mediterranean, Saudi
> Arabia
> > and east to India (not on Socotra). It's in Macey et al., 2008 Mol
> Phylogen Evol
> > 49: 1015.
> >
> > This is the sort of thing you see in many groups in the Caribbean and
> > the
> SW
> > Pacific. It's very simple to explain the pattern by an early break in
> > a widespread ancestor, somewhere around Socotra. If you want to
> > explain it by the usual dispersal from the mainland, you have to bring
> > in other, ad
> hoc
> > hypotheses. But the main point is just how starkly and beautifully it
> highlights
> > the significance of Socotra, whatever the actual mechanism.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 7:08 PM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Ken. Sorry for replying so late but i am currently travelling
> around.
> > > Your optimism is refreshing but ultimately a waste of effort. There
> > > is no evidence that you can offer them that will satisfy them
> > > because you don't know (or them I suspect) what they are arguing
> > > against. Whereas you, I or most others can accept vicariance and
> > > dispersal as mechanisms (and have said so repeatedly) we are labelled
> dispersalists.
> Go
> > figure.
> > > When you show them clear, factual evidence of organisms being sent
> > > across the ocean, these events are either "too frequent" or so
> > > infrequent that the probabilities cannot be calculated and therefore
> > > no different to astrology (so much for only being interested in data).
> > > What you will never be shown are the definitions under which they
> > > operate. Funny since they are interested in patterns and this
> > > requires some sort of operational definitions. But when a man's
> > > livelihood depends on not understanding something, then they won't,
> > > no matter
> > what you say.
> > > "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter
> > > how smart you are. If it doesn't agred with experiment, it's wrong."
> > > Stuff can cross oceans, let them fight facts if they want. I have
> > > critters to
> catch.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Jason
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My recent books:
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics.* 2012. University of
> > California Press, Berkeley.
> > www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn80520271968
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. 2014. Cambridge
> > University Press, Cambridge. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
>
> Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 19:23:10 +0200
> From: Alain Dubois <adbionomina at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Taxacom Digest, Vol 97, Issue 6
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAC56Ws6KW5Jb5qZUcKg4uNRpzX0rDK0qfvwZ1_3bBi_yJMYh+w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Linz International Zoological Nomenclature Workshop
>
> Dear Doug,
>
> Yes, we did invite personally several members of the Commission to the
> meeting, and anyway all its members are welcome to attend it if they wish
> to contribute to the special volume of Bionomina that will result from this
> workshop. Two days is a short period and we will not be able to discuss all
> questions in detail, let alone use Skype for discussions. The meeting will
> fix a roadmap for the preparation of this volume. People not present at the
> meeting who will express interest to contribute to this volume will be
> invited to submit manuscripts once this roadmap is fixed.
>
> Yes, we (not me alone) read the "rebuttal" of the Commission to our work,
> which leaves many questions unanswered and shows that our work was indeed
> useful. This also will be discussed in Linz and in the special volume.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Alain Dubois
>
> ____________________________________
>
> Professeur Alain Dubois
> Mus?um National d'Histoire Naturelle
> Institut Syst?matique, Evolution, Biodiversit? (ISYEB) - UMR 7205
> Reptiles & Amphibiens
> CP 30
> 25 rue Cuvier
> 75005 Paris
> France
>
> emails: <adbionomina at gmail.com>, <adpeerj at gmail.com>, <adubois at mnhn.fr>
>
> Chief Editor, Bionomina
> <http://www.mapress.com/bionomina>
>
> Nomenclature Editor, Zootaxa
> <http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/>
>
> Academic Editor, PeerJ
> <https://peerj.com>
> ____________________________________
>
> "La culture ce n'est pas avoir le cerveau farci de dates, de noms ou de
> chiffres, c'est la qualit? du jugement, l'exigence logique, l'app?tit de la
> preuve, la notion de la complexit? des choses et de l'arduit? des
> probl?mes. C'est l'habitude du doute, le discernement dans la m?fiance, la
> modestie d'opinion, la patience d'ignorer, la certitude qu'on n'a jamais
> tout le vrai en partage; c'est avoir l'esprit ferme sans l'avoir rigide,
> c'est ?tre arm? contre le flou et aussi contre la fausse pr?cision, c'est
> refuser tous les fanatismes et jusqu'? ceux qui s'autorisent de la raison;
> c'est suspecter les dogmatismes officiels mais sans profit pour les
> charlatans, c'est r?v?rer le g?nie mais sans en faire une idole, c'est
> toujours pr?f?rer ce qui est ? ce qu'on pr?f?rerait qui f?t."
> (Jean Rostand, Le droit d'?tre naturaliste, 1963).
>
> "L'id?e de commander et d'?tre ob?i est le propre d'une mentalit?
> infantile. Cela explique que les dictateurs soient des gens immatures."
> (Jorge Luis Borges, "L'id?e de fronti?res et de nations me para?t absurde",
> Le Monde Diplomatique, ao?t 2001).
> ___________________________________
>
>
> 2014-04-06 19:00 GMT+02:00 <taxacom-request at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>:
>
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > taxacom-request at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Taxacom digest..."
> >
> >
> > When responding to a message in a digest package, please do not copy the
> > entire digest into your reply as it is tedious for your readers to scroll
> > through pages of unrelated material and older replies. Many thanks!
> > ____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Killifish biogeography (John Grehan)
> > 2. Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop (Alain Dubois)
> > 3. Re: Panbiogeography (JF Mate)
> > 4. Re: Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
> > (Doug Yanega)
> > 5. Re: Panbiogeography (Michael Heads)
> > 6. Re: Panbiogeography (John Grehan)
> > 7. Stuart Fullerton (stuartf)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 13:19:19 -0400
> > From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Killifish biogeography
> > To: Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Message-ID:
> > <CADN0ud0om+iGUP4wW1UguV5uj6xh> > H-yYpf5RhcT60s0_BVkEQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Briggs asserts that the Cyprindondiformes are part of the Antherinomorpha
> > for which the oldest fossil dates are from the early to mid-Tertiary and
> > alognth older fossils are not precluded, their appearance becomes "less
> > probable" as time goes by. No explanation of what this means
> > scientifically.
> >
> >
> >
> > Then Briggs makes a huge leap in logic by saying "If, as the fossil
> > record *seems
> > to indicate*, the aplocheiloid fishes are too young to have been carried
> > about on tectonic plates, how did they achieve their cir-cumglobal
> range?"
> >
> >
> >
> > This reads as a slight of hand, by claiming that the fossil records
> "seems
> > to indicate" that the fishes are too young and therefore they are to
> young,
> > and having established that claim (not evidence) they must have achieved
> > their range without being carried on tectonic plates. The rest of his
> > argument is the invention of centers of origin and dispersal routes. Pure
> > fiction.
> >
> > JohnGrehan
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Michael,
> > > Oh yes, there was definitely a response by dispersalist Briggs
> > > (Briggs J. C., 2003. Fishes and birds: Gondwana life raft.
> reconsidered.
> > > Syst. Biol.;52:548-553). And Sparks and Smith (2005) then responded to
> > > Briggs (about the killifish and cichlids). It is a very interesting
> > > debate, and I am not yet fully convinced by either side on the
> killifish
> > > debate. I was at first inclined to accept vicariance as the major
> factor
> > > in killifish biogeography, but now I am back on the fence and looking
> > more
> > > carefully at dispersal (even across the ocean barrier between
> Madagascar
> > > and Africa).
> > > -----------------Ken Kinman
> > > Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 10:08:07 +1300
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> > > From: m.j.heads at gmail.com
> > > To: kinman at hotmail.com; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Hi Ken, I didn't mean to imply that there was a debate about this
> group.
> > > Murphy & Collier (1997) accepted vicariance, but I don't know if there
> > have
> > > been any responses to this from dispersalists.
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Michael,
> > > I don't know much about the debate concerning killifish
> > > biogeography, but assume (since you brought it up) that it must still
> be
> > > controversial (as with the cichlid fishes we discussed previously). I
> > can
> > > certainly see how the killifishes could be one of the few taxa which
> > > survived on Madagascar during the K-T extinction which killed off so
> many
> > > other vertebrates there. Especially since some killifish can enter
> > > diapause during periods of drought and/or starvation.
> > >
> > > Are you asking my opinion whether I side in this particular
> case
> > > with the dispersalists or those advocating vicariance? If so, I would
> > have
> > > to look at the dispersalist arguments on the other side of the debate.
> > Are
> > > there any recent papers still suggesting dispersal played a major role
> in
> > > the broad (worldwide) biogeography of killifish? Sounds like an
> > > interesting debate.
> > >
> > > --------------------------Ken
> > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:39:23 +1300
> > > > From: m.j.heads at gmail.com
> > > > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> > > >
> > > > Hi Ken,
> > > >
> > > > The aplocheiloid killifish illustrate a standard pattern, with two
> main
> > > > clades (Fig. 2-3 in my 2012 book). One is in America, and (another
> > >
> > > > subclade) mainland Africa. It's not in Madagascar, and you might
> > > > assume that this was the result of extinction there. But the other
> main
> > > > clade is in Madagascar and the Seychelles, and also (another
> > >
> > > > subclade) from India to Java.
> > > >
> > > > You could explain the pattern by chance dispersal from anywhere
> within
> > > the
> > > > whole range, e.g. Guatemala or Gabon or Goa. Chance dispersal is not
> > > > related to any other factor, and so this wouldn't make any particular
> > >
> > > > predictions.
> > > >
> > > > As an alternative, both groups could have been everywhere to begin
> > with,
> > > > and you could explain the pattern by the chance extinction of the
> first
> > > > group from Madagascar - Java, and the chance extinction of the second
> > > group
> > >
> > > > from America and Africa. This would predict fossils in the area of
> > > absence,
> > > > but none have ever been found. It's also difficult to imagine why one
> > > group
> > > > would go extinct in an area that is exactly allopatric with the area
> > > where
> > >
> > > > the other group went extinct. This explanation also leaves the
> original
> > > > differentiation of the groups unaccounted for.
> > > >
> > > > Or you could explain the pattern by simple vicariance, with the first
> > > break
> > >
> > > > located between Africa and Madagascar, at the Mozambique Channel.
> This
> > > > would make the general predictions that other groups would show
> similar
> > > > patterns, and that there would be a simple correlation between the
> > > pattern
> > >
> > > > and tectonics, climate or some other environmental factor. Note that
> > the
> > > > first break, between Africa and Madagascar, comes before the
> secondary
> > > > breaks (between America and Africa, and between
> Madagascar-Seychelles,
> > > and
> > >
> > > > India - Java). This is congruent with the continental breakup
> sequence.
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Juerg,
> > > > > Well, certainly not a nude rock. However, as I explained in
> > an
> > > > > earlier posting, the end-Cretaceous extinction wiped out a lot of
> > taxa
> > > > > (most vertebrates and probably all mammals). This left it with a
> lot
> > > of
> > >
> > > > > empty niches which new mammals and birds, etc. would fill during
> the
> > > > > early-to-mid Tertiary.
> > > > > But I suppose John would deny that the end-Cretaceous
> > > extinction
> > > > > was that bad in Madagascar. I am giving up arguing with him about
> > >
> > > > > Madagascar, because he just repeats the same old fallback
> positions,
> > > and
> > > > > now claiming that there is no "analytical evidence" for dispersal
> to
> > > > > Madagascar. It might not be strictly analytical evidence according
> > his
> > >
> > > > > definition of analytical, but there is plenty of evidence. He
> simply
> > > > > refuses to accept any of it. I should have given up trying to
> > reason
> > > with
> > > > > him a long time ago.
> > > > > -------------------Ken Kinman
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > From: demarmjc at hotmail.com
> > >
> > > > > > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > > > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 17:00:29 -0400
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Seeing the comments by our dispersalist friends, I wonder then,
> > > whether
> > > > > Madagascar was empty, a piece of nude rock, before the "great
> > > migration"
> > > > > out of Africa?
> > >
> > > > > > Juerg De Marmels
> > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dunedin, New Zealand. My recent books: Molecular panbiogeography of
> the
> > > tropics. 2012. University of California Press, Berkeley.
> > > www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn80520271968
> > > Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis. 2014. Cambridge
> > > University Press, Cambridge. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 07:32:15 +0200
> > From: Alain Dubois <adbionomina at gmail.com>
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > CAC56Ws4YPWM89GTPt5Bp49+gcqhww6hJ0_SkvpXBe0-B_kDQ+g at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Dear Colleagues,
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9-10 July 2014, a workshop devoted to "Burning questions and problems
> of
> > zoological nomenclature" will be held in Linz (Austria).
> >
> >
> >
> > The objectives of this meeting are threefold:
> >
> >
> >
> > (1) to allow the encounter of zoologists interested in questions of
> > nomenclature, questioning the pertinence of some recent evolutions of the
> > *Code*, and worrying about other possible evolutions;
> >
> >
> >
> > (2) to discuss freely and openly some of the burning questions and
> problems
> > of zoological nomenclature;
> >
> >
> >
> > (3) to prepare a special issue of the journal *Bionomina* (Magnolia
> Press)
> > reporting these discussions and proposing some solutions to some of the
> > problems identified.
> >
> >
> >
> > Scientific Committee: Erna Aescht, Linz (Secretary); Aaron Bauer,
> > Villanova; Edward C. Dickinson, Eastbourne; Pierre-Andr? Crochet,
> > Montpellier; Alain Dubois, Paris (Chairman); Ivan L?bl, Gen?ve; Antoine
> > Louchart, Lyon; Andr? Nem?sio, Uberl?ndia; Annemarie Ohler, Paris.
> >
> >
> >
> > This meeting is open to all interested zootaxonomists willing to
> contribute
> > to this constructive discussion.
> >
> >
> > If you would like to receive information about the meeting and its
> detailed
> > program, just contact Erna Aescht <e.aescht at landesmuseum.at> or myself <
> > adbionomina at gmail.com>.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> >
> >
> > Alain Dubois
> >
> > Professor
> >
> > ____________________________________
> >
> > Professeur Alain Dubois
> > Mus?um National d'Histoire Naturelle
> > Institut Syst?matique, Evolution, Biodiversit? (ISYEB) - UMR 7205
> > Reptiles & Amphibiens
> > CP 30
> > 25 rue Cuvier
> > 75005 Paris
> > France
> >
> > emails: adbionomina at gmail.com, adpeerj at gmail.com, adubois at mnhn.fr
> >
> > Chief Editor, Bionomina
> > <http://www.mapress.com/bionomina>
> >
> > Nomenclature Editor, Zootaxa
> > <http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/>
> >
> > Academic Editor, PeerJ
> > <https://peerj.com>
> > ____________________________________
> >
> > "La culture ce n'est pas avoir le cerveau farci de dates, de noms ou de
> > chiffres, c'est la qualit? du jugement, l'exigence logique, l'app?tit de
> la
> > preuve, la notion de la complexit? des choses et de l'arduit? des
> > probl?mes. C'est l'habitude du doute, le discernement dans la m?fiance,
> la
> > modestie d'opinion, la patience d'ignorer, la certitude qu'on n'a jamais
> > tout le vrai en partage; c'est avoir l'esprit ferme sans l'avoir rigide,
> > c'est ?tre arm? contre le flou et aussi contre la fausse pr?cision, c'est
> > refuser tous les fanatismes et jusqu'? ceux qui s'autorisent de la
> raison;
> > c'est suspecter les dogmatismes officiels mais sans profit pour les
> > charlatans, c'est r?v?rer le g?nie mais sans en faire une idole, c'est
> > toujours pr?f?rer ce qui est ? ce qu'on pr?f?rerait qui f?t."
> > (Jean Rostand, Le droit d'?tre naturaliste, 1963).
> >
> > "L'id?e de commander et d'?tre ob?i est le propre d'une mentalit?
> > infantile. Cela explique que les dictateurs soient des gens immatures."
> > (Jorge Luis Borges, "L'id?e de fronti?res et de nations me para?t
> absurde",
> > Le Monde Diplomatique, ao?t 2001).
> > ___________________________________
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 09:08:36 +0200
> > From: JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> > To: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Message-ID:
> > <CADQJvRxJowye=OSxEm-c=yJHHGrF> > kLqP_AiUOSGMmC6A9BjAA at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Hi Ken. Sorry for replying so late but i am currently travelling around.
> > Your optimism is refreshing but ultimately a waste of effort. There is no
> > evidence that you can offer them that will satisfy them because you don't
> > know (or them I suspect) what they are arguing against. Whereas you, I or
> > most others can accept vicariance and dispersal as mechanisms (and have
> > said so repeatedly) we are labelled dispersalists. Go figure.
> > When you show them clear, factual evidence of organisms being sent across
> > the ocean, these events are either "too frequent" or so infrequent that
> the
> > probabilities cannot be calculated and therefore no different to
> astrology
> > (so much for only being interested in data). What you will never be shown
> > are the definitions under which they operate. Funny since they are
> > interested in patterns and this requires some sort of operational
> > definitions. But when a man's livelihood depends on not understanding
> > something, then they won't, no matter what you say.
> > "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how
> > smart you are. If it doesn't agred with experiment, it's wrong." Stuff
> can
> > cross oceans, let them fight facts if they want. I have critters to
> catch.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 01:31:46 -0700
> > From: Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature
> > Workshop
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Message-ID: <534110F2.5040902 at ucr.edu>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > On 4/5/14 10:32 PM, Alain Dubois wrote:
> > > Dear Colleagues,
> > >
> > > On 9-10 July 2014, a workshop devoted to "Burning questions and
> problems
> > of
> > > zoological nomenclature" will be held in Linz (Austria).
> > >
> > > The objectives of this meeting are threefold:
> > >
> > > (1) to allow the encounter of zoologists interested in questions of
> > > nomenclature, questioning the pertinence of some recent evolutions of
> the
> > > *Code*, and worrying about other possible evolutions;
> > >
> > > (2) to discuss freely and openly some of the burning questions and
> > problems
> > > of zoological nomenclature;
> > >
> > > (3) to prepare a special issue of the journal *Bionomina* (Magnolia
> > Press)
> > > reporting these discussions and proposing some solutions to some of the
> > > problems identified.
> > >
> > > Scientific Committee: Erna Aescht, Linz (Secretary); Aaron Bauer,
> > > Villanova; Edward C. Dickinson, Eastbourne; Pierre-Andr? Crochet,
> > > Montpellier; Alain Dubois, Paris (Chairman); Ivan L?bl, Gen?ve; Antoine
> > > Louchart, Lyon; Andr? Nem?sio, Uberl?ndia; Annemarie Ohler, Paris.
> > >
> > > This meeting is open to all interested zootaxonomists willing to
> > contribute
> > > to this constructive discussion.
> > >
> > > If you would like to receive information about the meeting and its
> > detailed
> > > program, just contact Erna Aescht <e.aescht at landesmuseum.at> or
> myself <
> > > adbionomina at gmail.com>.
> > >
> > >
> > Alain: Out of curiosity, did you invite any actual ICZN Commissioners,
> > or intend to allow for Skype participation for those who cannot travel
> > to Linz? Also, I assume you have read the ICZN's rebuttal of your recent
> > paper (http://www.mapress.com/file/d/zt03779p005.pdf) and the "burning
> > questions" you raised therein?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > --
> > Doug Yanega Dept. of Entomology Entomology Research Museum
> > Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314 skype: dyanega
> > phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
> > http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
> > "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
> > is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 22:16:31 +1200
> > From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> > To: JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> > Cc: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAF_uauCWBoOMn3OQ> > ZhkN4Nx3yj5mAa40ZiyuP21fSHeh_t02w at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Hi Jason,
> >
> > Getting back to the facts, a taxacomer just sent me a classic that I
> hadn't
> > spotted: a chameleon on Socotra that has a diverse sister group
> > widespread through the Sahel (Mali to Somalia), around the Mediterranean,
> > Saudi Arabia and east to India (not on Socotra). It's in Macey et al.,
> 2008
> > Mol Phylogen Evol 49: 1015.
> >
> > This is the sort of thing you see in many groups in the Caribbean and the
> > SW Pacific. It's very simple to explain the pattern by an early break in
> a
> > widespread ancestor, somewhere around Socotra. If you want to explain it
> by
> > the usual dispersal from the mainland, you have to bring in other, ad hoc
> > hypotheses. But the main point is just how starkly and beautifully it
> > highlights the significance of Socotra, whatever the actual mechanism.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 7:08 PM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Ken. Sorry for replying so late but i am currently travelling
> around.
> > > Your optimism is refreshing but ultimately a waste of effort. There is
> no
> > > evidence that you can offer them that will satisfy them because you
> don't
> > > know (or them I suspect) what they are arguing against. Whereas you, I
> or
> > > most others can accept vicariance and dispersal as mechanisms (and have
> > > said so repeatedly) we are labelled dispersalists. Go figure.
> > > When you show them clear, factual evidence of organisms being sent
> across
> > > the ocean, these events are either "too frequent" or so infrequent that
> > the
> > > probabilities cannot be calculated and therefore no different to
> > astrology
> > > (so much for only being interested in data). What you will never be
> shown
> > > are the definitions under which they operate. Funny since they are
> > > interested in patterns and this requires some sort of operational
> > > definitions. But when a man's livelihood depends on not understanding
> > > something, then they won't, no matter what you say.
> > > "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how
> > > smart you are. If it doesn't agred with experiment, it's wrong." Stuff
> > can
> > > cross oceans, let them fight facts if they want. I have critters to
> > catch.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Jason
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My recent books:
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics.* 2012. University of
> California
> > Press, Berkeley. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn80520271968
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. 2014. Cambridge
> > University Press, Cambridge. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 11:05:31 -0400
> > From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> > To: JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> > Cc: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Message-ID:
> > <CADN0ud2iwRiy> > gUzLb1o-UksF_4xxhL-VcWeAz_Xip6Lbm54fA at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > I for one do not recall if Jason or Ken have been labeled dispersalist,
> but
> > I do recall identifying particular approaches that were cited by them (or
> > one or the other) as dispersalist because those approaches invoked
> > dispersal from centers of origin.
> >
> >
> >
> > Evidence of organisms being sent across the ocean are indeed factual. I
> > would not attempt to label their probabilities as to their effect on
> > biogeographic patterns. It is dispersalist accounts for the origin of
> > trans-oceanic distributions that have often identified the dispersal as
> > mysterious etc. But back to the observed events. The indeed occur. The
> > question that they raise is to what extent they are responsible for the
> > observed vicariant patterns of distribution? They are often invoked as
> > evidence that overwater dispersal was responsible for these distributions
> > in relation to current ocean geography, but are they? Panbiogeography
> (as
> > I understand it) in some ways reverses the argument to look at patterns
> and
> > from analysis of those patterns make inferences about the role of
> dispersal
> > capability and observed dispersal events in the present.
> >
> >
> >
> > There is nothing wrong with dispersal hypotheses being generated, but it
> is
> > how they are generated that is often problematic. In most cases where
> > molecular similarity is used to construct phylogeny the authors also
> > misrepresent minimal divergence estimates as actual or maximal and from
> > that misrepresentation (which is sometimes deliberate as the authors
> begin
> > by acknowledging that the estimates are minimal but 'forget' about that
> > when constructing the historical events) they generate fictional evidence
> > of dispersal. I understand that Ken and perhaps others consider the gap
> > between the oldest fossil and the age of a vicariance divergence event is
> > too great to be acceptable, but such judgment seems to rest largely on a
> > personal belief rather than any empirical requirement. Some, for example,
> > may consider it too incredible for Old and New World monkeys to have
> > already diverged in the Cretaceous or earlier in the absence of fossils.
> > And maybe it is too incredible, but whether the fossil record is accurate
> > about these groups or not is another matter - given that so many taxa
> lack
> > fossils at all, or purportedly old taxa have a relatively recent fossil
> > record (I think tuatara only go back a few million years for example).
> >
> >
> >
> > When it comes to considering dispersal or vicariance, it is not whether
> one
> > stands for either or both in general, but how one reaches those
> conclusions
> > for particular cases. In the killfish example one has a geographic
> pattern
> > that is consistent with a vicariant history (and is congruent with other
> > groups of different dispersal capabilities). On the other hand, Briggs
> just
> > says that the fish are too young and take his word for it. Other
> approaches
> > might use divergence estimates to predict overwater dispersal based on
> > misrepresenting minimal divergences as maximal. In some cases of
> freshwater
> > patterns it has been argued that some members or some related group shows
> > saltwater tolerance and so marine migration is possible. In theory yes,
> but
> > again what might constitute evidence as to whether or not that was
> > significant in the origin of particular patterns?
> >
> >
> >
> > When a taxon located either side of an ocean basin comprises one sub
> clade
> > that is also on both sides, but vicariates with another subclade on the
> > other side (this is a very common biogeographic pattern as I presume
> Jason,
> > Ken and most others on this list interested in biogeography are aware so
> > apologies in advance for stating the obvious), one has a primary
> divergence
> > that is not between the ocean 'barrier'. A vicariance explanation would
> be
> > that the divergence predated the 'barrier' and so the 'barrier' was not a
> > 'barrier' as such in the context of the origin of the taxon. I suppose a
> > dispersal hypothesis could be generated for this pattern in some way
> > allowed the taxon to be so highly dispersible as to cross an ocean, but
> > also not sufficiently dispersible to prevent vicariant divergence in the
> > first place, or maintain the subsequent vicariism.
> >
> >
> >
> > Overall, for modern life, spatial analysis of differentiated taxa
> indicates
> > that dispersal is critical for the origin of ancestral ranges within a
> > former geography predating the origin of modern ocean basins and many
> other
> > modern geomorphological features both on land and in the sea.
> >
> >
> >
> > I look forward to reading a specific analysis of Heads' book by Jason and
> > Ken.
> >
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 3:08 AM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Ken. Sorry for replying so late but i am currently travelling
> around.
> > > Your optimism is refreshing but ultimately a waste of effort. There is
> no
> > > evidence that you can offer them that will satisfy them because you
> don't
> > > know (or them I suspect) what they are arguing against. Whereas you, I
> or
> > > most others can accept vicariance and dispersal as mechanisms (and have
> > > said so repeatedly) we are labelled dispersalists. Go figure.
> > > When you show them clear, factual evidence of organisms being sent
> across
> > > the ocean, these events are either "too frequent" or so infrequent that
> > the
> > > probabilities cannot be calculated and therefore no different to
> > astrology
> > > (so much for only being interested in data). What you will never be
> shown
> > > are the definitions under which they operate. Funny since they are
> > > interested in patterns and this requires some sort of operational
> > > definitions. But when a man's livelihood depends on not understanding
> > > something, then they won't, no matter what you say.
> > > "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how
> > > smart you are. If it doesn't agred with experiment, it's wrong." Stuff
> > can
> > > cross oceans, let them fight facts if they want. I have critters to
> > catch.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > Jason
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 15:23:00 +0000
> > From: stuartf <stuartf at knights.ucf.edu>
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Stuart Fullerton
> > To: "Edwards, G.B." <GB.Edwards at freshfromflorida.com>, alaina bernard
> > <alaina.bernard at ucf.edu>, Al Newton <anewton at fieldmuseum.org>,
> > Alan M
> > Bunner <culveral at mac.com>, alan fickett <dockirby at aol.com>,
> andy
> > deans
> > <adeans at gmail.com>, "andy_deans at ncsu.edu" <andy_deans at ncsu.edu>,
> > Cuminale <Cuminale at knights.ucf.edu>, arlene ruddick
> > <arudduck at csbt.com>, "Arthur V. Evans Evans"
> > <arthurevans at VERIZON.NET>, barbara erwin <
> > berwin at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>,
> > Barbara Offineer <Barbara.Offineer at ucf.edu>, barry thys
> > <blthys at msn.com>, Ben G <bmg1110 at gmail.com>, Benny Peavey
> > <chefbbp at yahoo.com>, bernard varley <bvarley at cfl.rr.com>, betsy
> > von
> > holle <vonholle at mail.ucf.edu>, Bill clark <
> > clarkfam1 at mindspring.com>,
> > boze kokan <boze.kokan at gmail.com>, Bo?e <
> > boze.kokan at st.t-com.hr>, buck
> > <buckmb at gmail.com>, charles michner <michener at ku.edu>, "charles
> > rolsky
> > 2012" <crolsky at asu.edu>, cheryl barr <cbarr at nature.berkeley.edu
> >,
> > chris mah <brisinga at gmail.com>, chris mah <mahch at si.edu>,
> > chris
> > parkenson <cparkins at mail.ucf.edu>, clay scherer
> > <clay.w.scherer at usa.dupont.com>, "cliff turnell"
> > <cliff.turnell at cgimotion.com>, cliff turnell <
> > cturnell at cgimotion.com>,
> > "Almquist, David" <DAlmquist at admin.fsu.edu>, "david almquist"
> > <daidunno at hotmail.com>, david almquist <dalmquist at fnai.org>,
> > "david
> > jenkins" <david.jenkins at ucf.edu>, david jenkins
> > <dgjenkins at mail.ucf.edu>, david kelly <david_kelly at fws.gov>,
> david
> > lovejoy <dlovejoy at westfield.ma.edu>, david lovejoy
> > <dlovejoy at wsc.ma.edu>, david wahl <aei at aei.cfcoxmail.com>,
> > "dean
> > michael johnson" <michael.johnson2 at ucf.edu>, dean rhodes
> > <rhoadsd at trinityprep.org>, Dennis Frank <
> > denniswfrank at yahoo.com>,
> > "dennis kelly" <dkkellys at msn.com>, Derek Woller
> > <dwoller at knights.ucf.edu>, "Derek Woller" <asilid at gmail.com
> >,
> > "Dobbins, David L Dobbins" <david.l.dobbins at lmco.com>, don
> > webb
> > <dwebb at inhs.uiuc.edu>, doug noah <dnoah at drml-law.com>,
> > Doug Yanega
> > Yanega <dyanega at UCR.EDU>, drake gomez <
> drake.gomez at keystone.edu>,
> > drew
> > thomas <drew522 at gmail.com>, "ecn - entomologial coll
> network"
> > <ecn-l at listserv.unl.edu>, Ed Zoll <ezoll321 at gmail.com>,
> > eleanor
> > gladding <egladding at swca.com>, elliot vittes <elliot at ucf.edu
> >,
> > entomo-l <entomo-l at listserv.uoguelph.ca>, Eric Eaton Eaton
> > <bugeric24 at YAHOO.COM>, eric katenkamp <ekatenkamp at yahoo.com>,
> > erik
> > katenkamp <erik.katenkamp at publix.com>, fly times stephen gaimari
> > <sgaimari at cdfa.ca.gov>, frank kurczewski <
> fkurczewski at twcny.rr.com
> > >,
> > "frank logiudice" <franktlogiudice at gmail.com>, frank logiudice
> > <floguidi at mail.ucf.edu>, frank parker <astata at comcast.net>,
> > "frank.krell at dmns.org" <frank.krell at dmns.org>, Fred Sherberger
> > <f.sherberger at gmail.com>, Gary Gibson <Gary.Gibson at AGR.GC.CA>,
> > "gary
> > square gary" <gbambam61 at gmail.com>, Gary Steck
> > <Gary.Steck at freshfromflorida.com>, gayle story <
> > gstory at mail.ucf.edu>,
> > george hertel <gherteljr at me.com>, "hanna stephens"
> > <hannacarolines at gmail.com>, "hector.cardona at ucf.edu"
> > <hector.cardona at ucf.edu>, "Hojun song" <entomos at gmail.com>,
> > hojung
> > song <song at mail.ucf.edu>, "Frank,J H" <jhfrank at UFL.EDU>, ina
> > carpenter
> > <ina.carpenter at ucf.edu>, ina carpenter <icarpent at mail.ucf.edu>,
> > istvan
> > Miko <istvan.miko at gmail.com>, amruth.rd <
> > amruth.rd at knights.ucf.edu>,
> > Jack stout <jstout at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>, I Stout <
> > I.Stout at ucf.edu>,
> > Jacques rifkins <Clerid at AOL.COM>, "james (riverside) bryant"
> > <jbryant at riversideca.gov>, "james pitts" <
> james.pitts at usu.edu>,
> > Janet
> > Mah <jntmah at yahoo.com>, "Jarrett, Ray"
> > <Ray.Jarrett at freshfromflorida.com>, jason gibbs <
> > dialictus at gmail.com>,
> > "jeff erickson" <jerickso at ucf.edu>, jason gibbs
> > <jason.gibbs at cornell.edu>, "jerome rozen" <rozen at amnh.org>,
> > jerry
> > klein <eugene.klein at ucf.edu>, jim wiley <
> > wileyj at doacs.state.fl.us>,
> > Jim Woolley <jimwoolley at tamu.edu>, joe hart <
> > jhartpi at hotmail.com>,
> > joel gomer <jgomer at gmail.com>, john brubaker <
> > jbrubaker911 at gmail.com>,
> > John Fauth <John.Fauth at ucf.edu>, john fauth <
> > jfauth at mail.ucf.com>,
> > john grehan <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>, john hearty
> > <john.heraty at ucr.edu>, john weishample <jweisham at mail.ucf.edu>,
> > jon
> > longhurst <oilpatchtrucker at gmail.com>, josh king
> > <joshua.king at ucf.edu>, josh mcgoldrick <mcgoldjb at yahoo.com>,
> > joshua
> > reece <josh830 at gmail.com>, JustinGibbons
> > <JustinGibbons at knights.ucf.edu>, justin schmidt
> > <ponerine at dakotacom.net>, karen copeland <
> > krccpa at copelandcpa.com>,
> > Karlie Carman <karlielino3 at knights.ucf.edu>, katharine
> fulkerson
> > <k0fulkz1 at hotmail.com>, kathy schick <
> > kaschick at uclink.berkeley.edu>,
> > kathy schick <kaschick at berkeley.edu>, "kelly (foundation
> lady)
> > dowling" <kelly.dowling at ucf.edu>, ken fedorka
> > <kenneth.fedorka at ucf.edu>, "kevin williams" <
> > kevin.williams at usu.edu>,
> > "Williams, Kevin" <Kevin.Williams at freshfromflorida.com>,
> > kim gulledge
> > <kgulledge at admin.fsu.edu>, kris o'donnell <odonnell at mail.ucf.edu
> >,
> > "laurie von Kalm" <lvonkalm at mail.ucf.edu>, leon sholman
> > <elares at 4fast.net>, linda berlin <
> berlinl at seminolestate.edu>,
> > lorie
> > von kalm <laurence.vonkalm at ucf.edu>, "Louis Sorkin
> Sorkin"
> > <sorkin at AMNH.ORG>, Loyd Myatt <snakedoctor at earthlink.net>, "lubo
> > masner" <lmasner at gmail.com>, margaret thayer
> > <mthayer at fieldmuseum.org>, mark <mark at olkiewicz.com>, "Deyrup,
> > Mark"
> > <MDeyrup at archbold-station.org>, "mark olkiewicz"
> > <mark.olkiewicz at gmail.com>, mark Olkiewicz <markoinla at yahoo.com
> >,
> > marla schwsarzfeld <schwarzf at ualberta.ca>, mary kime
> > <rsnyder11 at cfl.rr.com>, mary turnell <Mmturn at aol.com>, matt
> > yoder
> > <diaprid at gmail.com>, matt yoder <diapriid at gmail.com>, maureen
> > fitzgerald <mf6904 at gmail.com>, "maureen fitzgerald"
> > <mfitzgerald at csun.edu>, "Michael A. Ivie Ivie" <
> mivie at montana.edu
> > >,
> > michael ohl <michael.ohl at mfn-berlin.de>, michael ray <
> > mray at pbsj.com>,
> > mike irwin <meirwin at illinois.edu>, Mike Quinn Quinn
> > <entomike at GMAIL.COM>, mike sharkey <msharkey at uky.edu>, mike
> smith
> > <msmith at thehealthlawfirm.com>, Mike smith <msmith539 at cfl.rr.com
> >,
> > mike
> > thomas <michael.thomas at freshfromflorida.com>, molly rightmyer
> > <molly_rightmyer at yahoo.com>, Neal Evenhuis Evenhuis
> > <neale at bishopmuseum.org>, nhcoll <nhcoll-l at lists.yale.edu
> >,
> > Norm
> > Johnson <johnson.2 at osu.edu>, "Penny, Norm" <
> > NPenny at calacademy.org>,
> > olmi <olmi at unitus.it>, pat rogers <qtera31 at yahoo.com>,
> > patrick bohlen
> > <patrick.bohlen at ucf.edu>, Paul Blom <blom.paul.e at gmail.com>,
> > Paul
> > Johnson <Paul.Johnson at SDSTATE.EDU>, "Skelley, Paul"
> > <Paul.Skelley at freshfromflorida.com>, Petr ento-pins
> > <ento-pins at kabatek.cz>, Philip Edwards <Philip.Edwards at ucf.edu>,
> > phil
> > edwards <pedwards at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>, phillip russell
> > <pjruss1973 at earthlink.net>, "Russell, Phillip J - APHIS"
> > <phillip.j.russell at aphis.usda.gov>, "rani vajravelu"
> > <rani.vajravelu at ucf.edu>, ray jarrett <
> > jarretr at doacs.state.fl.us>,
> > reece halpern <rh at halpernlawoffice.com>, Richard Fagerlund
> > Fagerland
> > <richardfagerlund at YAHOO.COM>, richard westcott
> > <rwestcott at oda.state.or.us>, robert barney <
> > rbarney at wvstateu.edu>,
> > robert holmes <robert.holmes at ucf.edu>, Robert Zuparko
> > <rz at berkeley.edu>, rodger lawerence <rodclaw at bellsouth.net
> >,
> > roger
> > barker <regor.barker at gmail.com>, roger burks <
> > burks.roger at gmail.com>,
> > ron shurtz <shurzj at aol.com>, Ron Raby <ronraby1940 at gmail.com>,
> > "roni
> > vajaravelu" <vajraver at mail.ucf.edu>, ross hinkle <
> rhinkle at ucf.edu
> > >,
> > sam droege <sdroege at usgs.gov>, Sandor Kelly <
> > Sandor.Kelly at ucf.edu>,
> > sandra nixon <skfnixon at yahoo.com>, sante traps <
> > sante at santetraps.com>,
> > saul frommer <sfrommer at verizon.net>, scott shaw <
> > braconid at uwyo.edu>,
> > scott silver <scottjordansilver at gmail.com>, mccarthy84
> > <mccarthy84 at knights.ucf.edu>, sebastian roesinger
> > <sjroesinger at gmail.com>, slkelly <slkelly at knights.ucf.edu
> >,
> > shawn
> > kelly <poguesboy at hotmail.com>, Sheri Pearson <
> > Sheri.Pearson at ucf.edu>,
> > "Somma, Louis Somma" <sommal at doacs.state.fl.us>, Hojun
> Song
> > <song at ucf.edu>, Stephen Thorpe Thorpe <
> > stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> > steve heydon <slheydon at ucdavis.edu>, "steven jacobs"
> > <steven.jacobs at ucf.edu>, steven mah <stevesm83 at comcast.net>,
> > "susan
> > abbott-jameison" <sabbottjam at comcast.net>, susan abbott-jamieson
> > <susan.abbott.jamieson at gmail.com>, sven drewitz
> > <sdrewitz at hotmail.com>, "sven drewtz" <
> sven.drewitz at web.de>,
> > taxacom
> > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "terry griswold"
> > <terry.griswold at ars.usda.gov>, tim gately <
> tg0867 at yahoo.com>,
> > "Tom
> > ellis" <pilot at satx.rr.com>, tom post master nelson
> > <tom.nelson at ucf.edu>, tori sowell <torirs at mac.com>, tori sowell
> > <vrsowell at yahoo.com>, travis sims <tsims45 at cfl.rr.com>, "victor
> > dragon culture choi" <dragonculture10 at gmail.com>, vince
> lee
> > <vlee at calacademy.org>, "vinnie - vincerz coella"
> > <wolfy452002 at yahoo.com>, Volker Lohrmann
> > <Volker.Lohrmann at mfn-berlin.de>, von kalm <lvonkalm at ucf.edu>,
> > Walter
> > Taylor <Walter.Taylor at ucf.edu>, walter sweetpea taylor
> > <wtaylor at mail.ucf.edu>, walter taylor <
> > wtaylor at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>,
> > "Wiley, Jim" <James.Wiley at freshfromflorida.com>, will
> crampton
> > <crampton at mail.ucf.edu>, William Crampton <
> > William.Crampton at ucf.edu>,
> > "Mah, William" <w.mah at sbcglobal.net>, zach prusak <
> > zprusak at tnc.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > 4cfac4bc052242c4bcbb85954d974863 at DM2PR07MB558.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> >
> > This is Sandor Kelly (Stuart's friend, and the collection manager at
> UCFC,
> > for those that don't know), and I am writing all of you on Stuart's
> contact
> > list to sadly inform you that Stuart passed away on Saturday. Apparently
> he
> > died without struggle, probably from a heart attack.
> >
> > The last time I saw him was on Friday, at work, and I am happy to say it
> > was a good day for him. Many of our volunteers/workers were here and he
> had
> > a good time going through his routine and being around people he cared
> > about and vice versa.
> >
> > I will let you all know what is happening as I know more.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Sandor Kelly
> >
> >
> > Stuart M Fullerton ROF, Research Associate Arthropod
> >
> > Collection (UCFC), Dept. of Biology, University of Central Florida, PO
> >
> > Box 162368, Orlando, Florida, 32816-2368, USA. stuartf at knights.ucf.edu
> >
> > <mailto:stuartf at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>(407) 823-6540 (no voice mail),
> > http://bugcloset.cos.ucf.edu/
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> >
> > End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 97, Issue 6
> > **************************************
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 14:27:05 -0400
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography)
> To: Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
> Cc: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CADN0ud3mUzsrjU4AbjBvMygYFaWyjrmp8-DcJRCXyFkUPyGCLQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Richard,
>
>
>
> Either way, the issue is really about how to identify evidence that
> pertains to the origin of differentiation in space and time. The
> panbiogeographic approach treats distributions as raw data and the analysis
> rests on the identification of spatial and phylogenetic breaks to make
> historical predictions about the process.
>
>
>
> Heads' book includes some comments on sympatric speciation I will be
> interested in your appraisal.
>
>
> You may be interested in the concept of biodiversity in terms of spatial
> and phylogenetic structure outlined in Heads' book.
>
> John Grehan
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've only been partially paying attention to this thread, but Jason's
> > recent
> > post (which captured my own general perspective nicely) has encouraged me
> > to
> > ask some questions:
> >
> > 1) Does everyone agree that there is ample evidence that some populations
> > of
> > organisms have been fractioned via rare vicariant events, leading to
> > reproductive isolation and subsequent divergence and, ultimately,
> > speciation?
> >
> > 2) Does everyone agree that there is ample evidence that some populations
> > of
> > organisms have been fractioned via rare dispersal events, leading to
> > reproductive isolation and subsequent divergence and, ultimately,
> > speciation?
> >
> > If anyone's answer to either question is "No", I would like to hear an
> > explicit statement of such, accompanied by explanations that counter the
> > aforementioned ample evidence (which has been, and could easily be,
> > provided
> > by members of this list) in specific, individual situations.
> >
> > If we all agree that the answer to both questions is "Yes", then can
> > someone
> > explain what this seemingly never-ending debate is really about? Is it
> > simply about the relative frequency of each mechanism, across broader
> > biodiversity, that has historically resulted in reproductively isolated
> > populations and subsequent speciation? If so, then the next question is:
> >
> > 3) Are we arguing about 95/5 one way or the other, or more like 60/40 one
> > way or the other?
> >
> > Some additional questions:
> >
> > 4) Is anyone willing to step up to the plate to discuss cases where
> > speciation seems to have occurred in the absence of geographic isolation
> > (i.e., no dispersal or vicariant events required)?
> >
> > 5) Does someone want to take a stab at defining the scope of "broader
> > biodiversity" alluded to in the preamble to question #3 above? (There
> seems
> > to be a lot of focus on terrestrial vertebrates and plants -- does the
> > debate also include marine organisms? What about insects? Microbes? Can
> > vicariance or dispersal explain patterns of bacteria diversity?)
> >
> > 6) Imagine a hypothetical(?) situation where infrequent events like
> global
> > glaciation cycles cause substantial sea-level changes, which have
> dramatic
> > impact to ocean currents and thereby shifts in patterns of dispersal
> > potential/frequency among marine organisms with planktonic larvae -- such
> > that geographically disjoint populations that have high potential gene
> flow
> > during long periods of time, undergo long periods of time with very low
> > potential gene flow. In such cases, where speciation results during the
> > low-gene-flow periods, do we score a point for vicariance, or for
> > dispersal?
> >
> > Aloha,
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > Richard L. Pyle, PhD
> > Database Coordinator for Natural Sciences
> > Associate Zoologist in Ichthyology
> > Vicariant Dispersalist
> > Dive Safety Officer
> > Department of Natural Sciences, Bishop Museum
> > 1525 Bernice St., Honolulu, HI 96817
> > Ph: (808)848-4115, Fax: (808)847-8252
> > email: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> > http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/staff/pylerichard.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> > > bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Heads
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 12:17 AM
> > > To: JF Mate
> > > Cc: Taxacom
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> > >
> > > Hi Jason,
> > >
> > > Getting back to the facts, a taxacomer just sent me a classic that I
> > hadn't
> > > spotted: a chameleon on Socotra that has a diverse sister group
> > widespread
> > > through the Sahel (Mali to Somalia), around the Mediterranean, Saudi
> > Arabia
> > > and east to India (not on Socotra). It's in Macey et al., 2008 Mol
> > Phylogen Evol
> > > 49: 1015.
> > >
> > > This is the sort of thing you see in many groups in the Caribbean and
> the
> > SW
> > > Pacific. It's very simple to explain the pattern by an early break in a
> > > widespread ancestor, somewhere around Socotra. If you want to explain
> it
> > > by the usual dispersal from the mainland, you have to bring in other,
> ad
> > hoc
> > > hypotheses. But the main point is just how starkly and beautifully it
> > highlights
> > > the significance of Socotra, whatever the actual mechanism.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 7:08 PM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Ken. Sorry for replying so late but i am currently travelling
> > around.
> > > > Your optimism is refreshing but ultimately a waste of effort. There
> is
> > > > no evidence that you can offer them that will satisfy them because
> you
> > > > don't know (or them I suspect) what they are arguing against. Whereas
> > > > you, I or most others can accept vicariance and dispersal as
> > > > mechanisms (and have said so repeatedly) we are labelled
> dispersalists.
> > Go
> > > figure.
> > > > When you show them clear, factual evidence of organisms being sent
> > > > across the ocean, these events are either "too frequent" or so
> > > > infrequent that the probabilities cannot be calculated and therefore
> > > > no different to astrology (so much for only being interested in
> data).
> > > > What you will never be shown are the definitions under which they
> > > > operate. Funny since they are interested in patterns and this
> requires
> > > > some sort of operational definitions. But when a man's livelihood
> > > > depends on not understanding something, then they won't, no matter
> > > what you say.
> > > > "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter
> how
> > > > smart you are. If it doesn't agred with experiment, it's wrong."
> Stuff
> > > > can cross oceans, let them fight facts if they want. I have critters
> to
> > catch.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > Jason
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > >
> > > > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> > >
> > > My recent books:
> > >
> > > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics.* 2012. University of
> > California
> > > Press, Berkeley. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn80520271968
> > >
> > > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. 2014. Cambridge
> > > University Press, Cambridge. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 12:28:46 -0600
> From: "Michael A. Ivie" <mivie at montana.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature
> Workshop
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu, Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Message-ID: <53419CDE.7020506 at montana.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Doug,
>
> To be fair to Alain, the message you responded to was an invitation that
> went to you, and I am sure more Commissioners than you received it as
> well. To imply you were not invited in response to an invitation to you
> is disingenuous.
>
> Mike
>
> On 4/6/2014 2:31 AM, Doug Yanega wrote:
> > On 4/5/14 10:32 PM, Alain Dubois wrote:
> >> Dear Colleagues,
> >>
> >> On 9-10 July 2014, a workshop devoted to "Burning questions and
> problems of
> >> zoological nomenclature" will be held in Linz (Austria).
> >>
> >> The objectives of this meeting are threefold:
> >>
> >> (1) to allow the encounter of zoologists interested in questions of
> >> nomenclature, questioning the pertinence of some recent evolutions of
> the
> >> *Code*, and worrying about other possible evolutions;
> >>
> >> (2) to discuss freely and openly some of the burning questions and
> problems
> >> of zoological nomenclature;
> >>
> >> (3) to prepare a special issue of the journal *Bionomina* (Magnolia
> Press)
> >> reporting these discussions and proposing some solutions to some of the
> >> problems identified.
> >>
> >> Scientific Committee: Erna Aescht, Linz (Secretary); Aaron Bauer,
> >> Villanova; Edward C. Dickinson, Eastbourne; Pierre-Andr? Crochet,
> >> Montpellier; Alain Dubois, Paris (Chairman); Ivan L?bl, Gen?ve; Antoine
> >> Louchart, Lyon; Andr? Nem?sio, Uberl?ndia; Annemarie Ohler, Paris.
> >>
> >> This meeting is open to all interested zootaxonomists willing to
> contribute
> >> to this constructive discussion.
> >>
> >> If you would like to receive information about the meeting and its
> detailed
> >> program, just contact Erna Aescht <e.aescht at landesmuseum.at> or myself
> <
> >> adbionomina at gmail.com>.
> >>
> >>
> > Alain: Out of curiosity, did you invite any actual ICZN Commissioners,
> > or intend to allow for Skype participation for those who cannot travel
> > to Linz? Also, I assume you have read the ICZN's rebuttal of your recent
> > paper (http://www.mapress.com/file/d/zt03779p005.pdf) and the "burning
> > questions" you raised therein?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 12:51:34 -0700
> From: Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature
> Workshop
> To: mivie at montana.edu, taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Message-ID: <5341B046.3080409 at ucr.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 4/6/14 11:28 AM, Michael A. Ivie wrote:
> > Doug,
> >
> > To be fair to Alain, the message you responded to was an invitation
> > that went to you, and I am sure more Commissioners than you received
> > it as well. To imply you were not invited in response to an
> > invitation to you is disingenuous.
> Pardon me for not being explicit - "invited to be on the program" is
> what I meant, not "invited to attend". Even so, a posting to a mailing
> list saying "Anyone in the world can attend this meeting" is not exactly
> what most people would construe as an invitation (by that logic, we're
> all being invited to every public event, everywhere in the world, all
> the time). I would call this sort of thing an "advertisement" rather
> than an "invitation".
>
> Peace,
>
> --
> Doug Yanega Dept. of Entomology Entomology Research Museum
> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314 skype: dyanega
> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
> http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
> "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
> is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 18:30:11 -0400 (EDT)
> From: robinwbruce at aol.com
> Subject: [Taxacom] On panbiogeography
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Message-ID: <8D11FFEE78A8230-156C-32EE7 at webmail-d297.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> It is unfortunate, but seems unavoidable for the present, that any
> discussion of panbiogeography reduces to the antithesis - vicariance or
> dispersal - rather than to the coupling of dispersal and vicariance as
> different phases of the one reality. Croizat's use of the terms [relative]
> mobilism and [relative] immobilism seem to me to have a precision in
> English which only a non-native speaker could achieve with neologisms -
> left to our own devices we would have come up with an acronym! Croizat's
> thought seems to be rooted in the idea of the continuity of streams of life
> across the face of the globe coupled with morphogenetic creativity - from
> his early and naive 'cloud' distributions figured in 'Manual of
> Phytogeography', he developed his track analysis in his later works. By so
> doing, to my mind, he got behind the problem of the tyranny of the
> language of modern geography - to discuss past geographies in the terms of
> present geography is just to embrace fallacy. Thus he circumvented the
> problem of the present dictating the terms of discussion about the past.
> Nelson, after I believe much reflection, noted 'What is clear is that
> Croizat had a unique perception of the possible imprint left by past events
> on the geography of life today'. To my reading, Michael Heads follows in
> this tradition.
>
> E. S. Russell, in 'Form and Function', noted that in the history of
> biology there were only really two ways of looking at life that had arisen
> in western thought - preformation and epigenesis - material and organismal
> continuity and novel generativeness. Perhaps viewing panbiogeography in the
> light of both of these ways of looking at life might be instructive.
>
> Robin
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 18:43:28 -0600
> From: "Michael A. Ivie" <mivie at montana.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature
> Workshop
> To: Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID: <5341F4B0.2030308 at montana.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Well Doug,
>
> This response sounds like a bit of a presumption of entitlement issue.
> It is clear that everyone is invited, and there is no explicit "program"
> even mentioned. It could be indicative of the problem that the rebutal
> you cite and linked is only available to those with a Zootaxa
> subscription. If the ICZN wants to reach the community, perhaps an open
> access response would make them seem more responsive? I am not taking
> any position on the underlying debate, but there are some issues here
> that need to be openly addressed.
>
> Mike
> On 4/6/2014 1:51 PM, Doug Yanega wrote:
> > On 4/6/14 11:28 AM, Michael A. Ivie wrote:
> >> Doug,
> >>
> >> To be fair to Alain, the message you responded to was an invitation
> >> that went to you, and I am sure more Commissioners than you received
> >> it as well. To imply you were not invited in response to an
> >> invitation to you is disingenuous.
> > Pardon me for not being explicit - "invited to be on the program" is
> > what I meant, not "invited to attend". Even so, a posting to a mailing
> > list saying "Anyone in the world can attend this meeting" is not exactly
> > what most people would construe as an invitation (by that logic, we're
> > all being invited to every public event, everywhere in the world, all
> > the time). I would call this sort of thing an "advertisement" rather
> > than an "invitation".
> >
> > Peace,
> >
>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 20:10:06 -0600
> From: <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature
> Workshop
> To: <mivie at montana.edu>, <dyanega at ucr.edu>,
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Cc: ZhangZ at landcareresearch.co.nz
> Message-ID:
> <
> 585F164C9C1CDA4BBE6B626B8205DB362D4BA0AB33 at dmns-ex-mbx1.museum.dmns.org>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Mike,
> the ICZN comment was open-access initially, but apparently it currently is
> behind a subscription wall again at the primary Zootaxa webpage. I guess
> this is a mistake. Zhi-Qiang, can we fix this?
>
> It is available to everyone here
> http://biotaxa.org/Zootaxa/article/viewFile/zootaxa.3779.1.2/7229
> and soon (hopefully tomorrow) from my webpage
> http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell/frank-krell-publications
>
> Cheers
>
> Frank
>
> Dr. Frank-T. Krell
> Curator of Entomology
> Commissioner, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
> Chair, ICZN ZooBank Committee
> Department of Zoology
> Denver Museum of Nature & Science
> 2001 Colorado Boulevard
> Denver, CO 80205-5798 USA
> Frank.Krell at dmns.org
> Phone: (+1) (303) 370-8244
> Fax: (+1) (303) 331-6492
> http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
> lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
>
> The Denver Museum of Nature & Science aspires to create a community of
> critical thinkers who understand the lessons of the past and act as
> responsible stewards of the future.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [
> taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Michael A. Ivie [
> mivie at montana.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:43 PM
> To: Doug Yanega; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
>
> Well Doug,
>
> This response sounds like a bit of a presumption of entitlement issue.
> It is clear that everyone is invited, and there is no explicit "program"
> even mentioned. It could be indicative of the problem that the rebutal
> you cite and linked is only available to those with a Zootaxa
> subscription. If the ICZN wants to reach the community, perhaps an open
> access response would make them seem more responsive? I am not taking
> any position on the underlying debate, but there are some issues here
> that need to be openly addressed.
>
> Mike
> On 4/6/2014 1:51 PM, Doug Yanega wrote:
> > On 4/6/14 11:28 AM, Michael A. Ivie wrote:
> >> Doug,
> >>
> >> To be fair to Alain, the message you responded to was an invitation
> >> that went to you, and I am sure more Commissioners than you received
> >> it as well. To imply you were not invited in response to an
> >> invitation to you is disingenuous.
> > Pardon me for not being explicit - "invited to be on the program" is
> > what I meant, not "invited to attend". Even so, a posting to a mailing
> > list saying "Anyone in the world can attend this meeting" is not exactly
> > what most people would construe as an invitation (by that logic, we're
> > all being invited to every public event, everywhere in the world, all
> > the time). I would call this sort of thing an "advertisement" rather
> > than an "invitation".
> >
> > Peace,
> >
>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> NW corner of Lincoln and S.19th
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
>
> Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 20:04:50 -0700
> From: Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature
> Workshop
> To: mivie at montana.edu, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID: <534215D2.3090204 at ucr.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 4/6/14 5:43 PM, Michael A. Ivie wrote:
> > Well Doug,
> >
> > This response sounds like a bit of a presumption of entitlement
> > issue. It is clear that everyone is invited
> You may have missed Alain's response, posted here, in which he stated
> "Dear Doug, Yes, we did invite personally several members of the
> Commission to the meeting". Further, I'm not sure what you mean by
> "presumption of entitlement" - if there was a public meeting to be held
> discussing Montana State University's insect collection, and future
> directions it should take, including criticisms of its standing
> policies, would you not feel that you or someone else who actually works
> there should be invited to such a meeting, to represent the viewpoint
> and interests of the institution being criticized? Do you consider
> having an opportunity to defend yourself in public to be a gratuitous
> "entitlement"?? It would seem equally odd if a meeting discussing the
> perceived problems with the ICZN had no representatives of the ICZN in
> attendance. I assure you, there was no communication among the
> Commission prior to Alain's posting of this announcement, to let us know
> that such a meeting was even being planned, let alone that any of us had
> been personally invited. It was a straightforward question, asked for a
> logical reason; mostly, *it was news to me*.
> > It could be indicative of the problem that the rebutal you cite and
> > linked is only available to those with a Zootaxa subscription. If the
> > ICZN wants to reach the community, perhaps an open access response
> > would make them seem more responsive?
> >
> As far as I knew, it WAS open-access, but I see that Frank has already
> commented on this.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --
> Doug Yanega Dept. of Entomology Entomology Research Museum
> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314 skype: dyanega
> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
> http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
> "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
> is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 22:05:50 -0700
> From: Curtis Clark <lists at curtisclark.org>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography)
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Message-ID: <5342322E.40008 at curtisclark.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 2014-04-06 10:12 AM, Richard Pyle wrote:
> > 4) Is anyone willing to step up to the plate to discuss cases where
> > speciation seems to have occurred in the absence of geographic isolation
> > (i.e., no dispersal or vicariant events required)?
>
> The most convincing type of sympatric speciation is alloploidy, which is
> not uncommon in flowering plants, but less so elsewhere. It happens in a
> single generation, normally results in a barrier to gene flow, and the
> new species, being the result of hybridization, often has little niche
> overlap with either the parents or other species.
>
> --
> Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark
> Biological Sciences +1 909 869 4140
> Cal Poly Pomona, Pomona CA 91768
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 08:26:58 +0200
> From: Jenny Smedmark <jenny.smedmark at um.uib.no>
> Subject: [Taxacom] Job announcements: Associate Professor in
> Systematic Botany & Associate Professor in Vertebrate Zoology
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Message-ID: <A3548E86-E27A-4D1B-8B6F-6C2C454B8E0D at um.uib.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Dear colleagues,
> The University Museum in Bergen, Norway, is currently recruiting one
> Associate Professor in Systematic Botany and one in Vertebrate Zoology.
> For more information and to apply, please go to:
>
> http://www.jobbnorge.no/en/available-jobs/job/101821/associate-professor-in-systematic-botany
>
> http://www.jobbnorge.no/en/available-jobs/job/101820/associate-professor-in-vertebrate-zoology
> Best regards,
> Jenny Smedmark
> Associate professor
> Curator of vascular plants
> Herbarium BG
> University Museum of Bergen
> University of Bergen
> P.O. Box 7800
> NO-5020 Bergen, Norway
>
> Visiting address: All?gt. 41
> Phone: +47 55 58 33 51
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 19:40:56 +1200
> From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Test Questions (was: Panbiogeography)
> To: Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
> Cc: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <CAF_uauCSnzKT5EUXgypfGdKo2H0m+N4o4Qgg9HWdcu> EndpCbQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> Speciation by 'chance dispersal' may well occur, but by definition would
> not result in a standard distribution pattern. I'd be interested in any
> possible cases.
> As for groups other than higher plants and animals, here are two
> examples. Both show the same thing that has been found in many marine
> groups since sequencing began - high levels of phylogeographic structure
> not predicted in the dispersal paradigm.
>
>
> Molecular studies of soil rotifers found 'surprising' and 'unexpected'
> structure (Robeson et al., 2011):
>
>
>
> Local communities show *strong spatial structuring*, whereas more distant
> communities are very different from one another, even in similar
> environments... This world view directly contradicts the idea of EisE
> [everything is everywhere] and suggests that the diversity of microbial
> eukaryotes such as rotifers may be vast beyond our imagining, especially
> given that endemic microbes may have *species ranges of about 100 m*...
> Bdelloids are known to produce small, resistant resting stages... that
> should disperse easily by wind. The fact that our results show that
> bdelloids are not widely distributed implies that other microbial
> eukaryotes with less resistant stages... should have even more
> geographically restricted distributions... the ability to form resistant
> stages probably evolved not for dispersal but to survive periods of
> unfavorable environmental conditions (i.e., dry and cold conditions)...
> thereby maintaining unique local communities. [Italics added].
>
>
>
> Allopatry even exists in bacteria and a survey *of *the global
> genus *Chroococcidiopsis
> **concluded: *
>
>
>
> Temporally scaled phylogenetic analyses showed no evidence of recent
> inter-regional gene flow, indicating populations have not shared common
> ancestry since before the formation of modern continents... although a
> desert cyanobacterium such as *Chroococcidiopsis* may notionally possess
> the characteristics for ubiquitous dispersal due to aeolian transport of
> desert particulates and its desiccation/radiation tolerance..., this is not
> reflected in contemporary colonization [i.e. distribution] patterns. The
> existence of regionally isolated gene pools of hot and cold
> *Chroococcidiopsis* variants strongly supports the concept that widespread
> contemporary dispersal is not common, and that relationships reflect
> ancient historical legacies. Although strong selection for hot and cold
> variants has occurred, this pre-dates contemporary climatic selective
> pressures... (Bahl et al., 2011).
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 5:12 AM, Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've only been partially paying attention to this thread, but Jason's
> > recent
> > post (which captured my own general perspective nicely) has encouraged me
> > to
> > ask some questions:
> >
> > 1) Does everyone agree that there is ample evidence that some populations
> > of
> > organisms have been fractioned via rare vicariant events, leading to
> > reproductive isolation and subsequent divergence and, ultimately,
> > speciation?
> >
> > 2) Does everyone agree that there is ample evidence that some populations
> > of
> > organisms have been fractioned via rare dispersal events, leading to
> > reproductive isolation and subsequent divergence and, ultimately,
> > speciation?
> >
> > If anyone's answer to either question is "No", I would like to hear an
> > explicit statement of such, accompanied by explanations that counter the
> > aforementioned ample evidence (which has been, and could easily be,
> > provided
> > by members of this list) in specific, individual situations.
> >
> > If we all agree that the answer to both questions is "Yes", then can
> > someone
> > explain what this seemingly never-ending debate is really about? Is it
> > simply about the relative frequency of each mechanism, across broader
> > biodiversity, that has historically resulted in reproductively isolated
> > populations and subsequent speciation? If so, then the next question is:
> >
> > 3) Are we arguing about 95/5 one way or the other, or more like 60/40 one
> > way or the other?
> >
> > Some additional questions:
> >
> > 4) Is anyone willing to step up to the plate to discuss cases where
> > speciation seems to have occurred in the absence of geographic isolation
> > (i.e., no dispersal or vicariant events required)?
> >
> > 5) Does someone want to take a stab at defining the scope of "broader
> > biodiversity" alluded to in the preamble to question #3 above? (There
> seems
> > to be a lot of focus on terrestrial vertebrates and plants -- does the
> > debate also include marine organisms? What about insects? Microbes? Can
> > vicariance or dispersal explain patterns of bacteria diversity?)
> >
> > 6) Imagine a hypothetical(?) situation where infrequent events like
> global
> > glaciation cycles cause substantial sea-level changes, which have
> dramatic
> > impact to ocean currents and thereby shifts in patterns of dispersal
> > potential/frequency among marine organisms with planktonic larvae -- such
> > that geographically disjoint populations that have high potential gene
> flow
> > during long periods of time, undergo long periods of time with very low
> > potential gene flow. In such cases, where speciation results during the
> > low-gene-flow periods, do we score a point for vicariance, or for
> > dispersal?
> >
> > Aloha,
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > Richard L. Pyle, PhD
> > Database Coordinator for Natural Sciences
> > Associate Zoologist in Ichthyology
> > Vicariant Dispersalist
> > Dive Safety Officer
> > Department of Natural Sciences, Bishop Museum
> > 1525 Bernice St., Honolulu, HI 96817
> > Ph: (808)848-4115, Fax: (808)847-8252
> > email: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> > http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/staff/pylerichard.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> > > bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Heads
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 12:17 AM
> > > To: JF Mate
> > > Cc: Taxacom
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> > >
> > > Hi Jason,
> > >
> > > Getting back to the facts, a taxacomer just sent me a classic that I
> > hadn't
> > > spotted: a chameleon on Socotra that has a diverse sister group
> > widespread
> > > through the Sahel (Mali to Somalia), around the Mediterranean, Saudi
> > Arabia
> > > and east to India (not on Socotra). It's in Macey et al., 2008 Mol
> > Phylogen Evol
> > > 49: 1015.
> > >
> > > This is the sort of thing you see in many groups in the Caribbean and
> the
> > SW
> > > Pacific. It's very simple to explain the pattern by an early break in a
> > > widespread ancestor, somewhere around Socotra. If you want to explain
> it
> > > by the usual dispersal from the mainland, you have to bring in other,
> ad
> > hoc
> > > hypotheses. But the main point is just how starkly and beautifully it
> > highlights
> > > the significance of Socotra, whatever the actual mechanism.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 7:08 PM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Ken. Sorry for replying so late but i am currently travelling
> > around.
> > > > Your optimism is refreshing but ultimately a waste of effort. There
> is
> > > > no evidence that you can offer them that will satisfy them because
> you
> > > > don't know (or them I suspect) what they are arguing against. Whereas
> > > > you, I or most others can accept vicariance and dispersal as
> > > > mechanisms (and have said so repeatedly) we are labelled
> dispersalists.
> > Go
> > > figure.
> > > > When you show them clear, factual evidence of organisms being sent
> > > > across the ocean, these events are either "too frequent" or so
> > > > infrequent that the probabilities cannot be calculated and therefore
> > > > no different to astrology (so much for only being interested in
> data).
> > > > What you will never be shown are the definitions under which they
> > > > operate. Funny since they are interested in patterns and this
> requires
> > > > some sort of operational definitions. But when a man's livelihood
> > > > depends on not understanding something, then they won't, no matter
> > > what you say.
> > > > "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter
> how
> > > > smart you are. If it doesn't agred with experiment, it's wrong."
> Stuff
> > > > can cross oceans, let them fight facts if they want. I have critters
> to
> > catch.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > Jason
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > >
> > > > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> > >
> > > My recent books:
> > >
> > > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics.* 2012. University of
> > California
> > > Press, Berkeley. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn80520271968
> > >
> > > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. 2014. Cambridge
> > > University Press, Cambridge. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My recent books:
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics.* 2012. University of California
> Press, Berkeley. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn80520271968
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. 2014. Cambridge
> University Press, Cambridge. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 14:37:04 +0000
> From: Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Taxacom] trans-Atlantic "rafting" fish (great candidate)
> To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID: <SNT148-W13ABFBBB71FA931D8D96E0C1680 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> Hi All, I've been reading various research papers on the
> Aplocheiloid killifishes, and in a recently published paper by Costa, 2013
> [Vertebrate Zoology, 63(2): 139?154], I was very surprised to see his
> results showing that genus Kryptolebias was sister group to ALL of the
> other genera of the New World family Rivulidae.
>
> Is it merely coincidence that the primitive American genus
> Kryptolebias just happens to be a great candidate for a fish that could
> disperse on a raft of vegetation from Africa to South America? (1) It's
> not only very tolerant of salt water, but more importantly (2) it can
> survive out of water for weeks at a time (66 days in one case). (3) And
> guess where Kryptolebias marmoratus spends much of its time while out of
> the water----in logs and cavities of trees (which would be the main
> structural components of a large transoceanic raft).
> Those are the three things I thought of offhand which pointed to
> possible trans-Atlantic dispersal. But then I began wondering about yet
> another strange thing about Kryptolebias fish. They often exhibit various
> types of hermaphroditism, and even its most extreme form
> (self-fertilization, which is apparently absent in vertebrates except for
> Kryptolebias). So just a few of these fish (or even a single individual)
> could have established a population on another continent. And the
> proximity of northern South America to the end-Cretaceous bolide impact off
> southern Mexico (and the resulting mass extinction) would have meant lots
> of empty niches that needed to be refilled in the early Tertiary.
> I'm not saying that this is definitely how the first Rivulid got
> to the New World, but it is certainly worth serious consideration. As for
> possible dispersal among the clades and subclades back in the Old World
> (Families Aplocheilidae and Nothobranchidae) versus the proposed vicariance
> explanations, I am definitely still on the fence and hoping to find more
> evidence either way. It could be a case where vicariance best explains
> the Old World pattern, but then followed by Cenozoic dispersal to the New
> World. But if there were no Aplocheiloids in existence when Madagascar
> (and India) split off of Africa, dispersal would trump vicariance there as
> well.
> Anyway, I can certainly understand why there has been a backlash in
> recent years among so-called "dispersalists" who believe that others have
> sometimes been too quick to assume vicariance where the evidence is frankly
> equivocal and some of them seem too quick to dismiss (or to just ignore)
> possible dispersal just because it appears unlikely. If a
> proto-Kryptolebias genus in Africa did disperse to South America by rafting
> sometime in the early Tertiary, hopefully a closely related genus might
> still exist in western Africa. But we won't know if we don't look for
> evidence (molecular or morphological) for that relationship in particular.
> Sometimes more intensive sampling (especially molecular) in a particular
> area of interest can reveal important information that limited sampling
> have simply missed. A sister group relationship between Kryptolebias and
> some West African aplocheiloids might be found, even if it is in molecular
> trees which aren't the shortest (and thus overlooked).
> -------------------Ken Kinman
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 04:04:01 +1200
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] trans-Atlantic "rafting" fish (great candidate)
> To: Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <CADN0ud3kXm_1zBeGbTB0s=S4qt4qVAD_x3XN5> R2NzPs7_ACOA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Ken,
>
> I'm a bit puzzled as to why the ecological characteristics of Kryptolebias
> marmoratus has anything to do with trans-Atlantic hypotheses when K
> marmoratus is more closely related S American taxa than those of Africa.
> Please clarify your argument.
>
> John Grehan
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 2:37 AM, Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi All, I've been reading various research papers on the
> > Aplocheiloid killifishes, and in a recently published paper by Costa,
> 2013
> > [Vertebrate Zoology, 63(2): 139-154], I was very surprised to see his
> > results showing that genus Kryptolebias was sister group to ALL of the
> > other genera of the New World family Rivulidae.
> >
> > Is it merely coincidence that the primitive American genus
> > Kryptolebias just happens to be a great candidate for a fish that could
> > disperse on a raft of vegetation from Africa to South America? (1) It's
> > not only very tolerant of salt water, but more importantly (2) it can
> > survive out of water for weeks at a time (66 days in one case). (3) And
> > guess where Kryptolebias marmoratus spends much of its time while out of
> > the water----in logs and cavities of trees (which would be the main
> > structural components of a large transoceanic raft).
> > Those are the three things I thought of offhand which pointed to
> > possible trans-Atlantic dispersal. But then I began wondering about yet
> > another strange thing about Kryptolebias fish. They often exhibit
> various
> > types of hermaphroditism, and even its most extreme form
> > (self-fertilization, which is apparently absent in vertebrates except for
> > Kryptolebias). So just a few of these fish (or even a single individual)
> > could have established a population on another continent. And the
> > proximity of northern South America to the end-Cretaceous bolide impact
> off
> > southern Mexico (and the resulting mass extinction) would have meant lots
> > of empty niches that needed to be refilled in the early Tertiary.
> > I'm not saying that this is definitely how the first Rivulid got
> > to the New World, but it is certainly worth serious consideration. As
> for
> > possible dispersal among the clades and subclades back in the Old World
> > (Families Aplocheilidae and Nothobranchidae) versus the proposed
> vicariance
> > explanations, I am definitely still on the fence and hoping to find more
> > evidence either way. It could be a case where vicariance best explains
> > the Old World pattern, but then followed by Cenozoic dispersal to the New
> > World. But if there were no Aplocheiloids in existence when Madagascar
> > (and India) split off of Africa, dispersal would trump vicariance there
> as
> > well.
> > Anyway, I can certainly understand why there has been a backlash
> in
> > recent years among so-called "dispersalists" who believe that others have
> > sometimes been too quick to assume vicariance where the evidence is
> frankly
> > equivocal and some of them seem too quick to dismiss (or to just ignore)
> > possible dispersal just because it appears unlikely. If a
> > proto-Kryptolebias genus in Africa did disperse to South America by
> rafting
> > sometime in the early Tertiary, hopefully a closely related genus might
> > still exist in western Africa. But we won't know if we don't look for
> > evidence (molecular or morphological) for that relationship in
> particular.
> > Sometimes more intensive sampling (especially molecular) in a particular
> > area of interest can reveal important information that limited sampling
> > have simply missed. A sister group relationship between Kryptolebias and
> > some West African aplocheiloids might be found, even if it is in
> molecular
> > trees which aren't the shortest (and thus overlooked).
> > -------------------Ken Kinman
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
>
> Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>
> End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 97, Issue 7
> **************************************
>
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