[Taxacom] Taxacom Digest, Vol 97, Issue 6
Alain Dubois
adbionomina at gmail.com
Sun Apr 6 12:23:10 CDT 2014
2014
Linz International Zoological Nomenclature Workshop
Dear Doug,
Yes, we did invite personally several members of the Commission to the
meeting, and anyway all its members are welcome to attend it if they wish
to contribute to the special volume of Bionomina that will result from this
workshop. Two days is a short period and we will not be able to discuss all
questions in detail, let alone use Skype for discussions. The meeting will
fix a roadmap for the preparation of this volume. People not present at the
meeting who will express interest to contribute to this volume will be
invited to submit manuscripts once this roadmap is fixed.
Yes, we (not me alone) read the "rebuttal" of the Commission to our work,
which leaves many questions unanswered and shows that our work was indeed
useful. This also will be discussed in Linz and in the special volume.
Sincerely,
Alain Dubois
____________________________________
Professeur Alain Dubois
Mus?um National d'Histoire Naturelle
Institut Syst?matique, Evolution, Biodiversit? (ISYEB) - UMR 7205
Reptiles & Amphibiens
CP 30
25 rue Cuvier
75005 Paris
France
emails: <adbionomina at gmail.com>, <adpeerj at gmail.com>, <adubois at mnhn.fr>
Chief Editor, Bionomina
<http://www.mapress.com/bionomina>
Nomenclature Editor, Zootaxa
<http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/>
Academic Editor, PeerJ
<https://peerj.com>
____________________________________
"La culture ce n'est pas avoir le cerveau farci de dates, de noms ou de
chiffres, c'est la qualit? du jugement, l'exigence logique, l'app?tit de la
preuve, la notion de la complexit? des choses et de l'arduit? des
probl?mes. C'est l'habitude du doute, le discernement dans la m?fiance, la
modestie d'opinion, la patience d'ignorer, la certitude qu'on n'a jamais
tout le vrai en partage; c'est avoir l'esprit ferme sans l'avoir rigide,
c'est ?tre arm? contre le flou et aussi contre la fausse pr?cision, c'est
refuser tous les fanatismes et jusqu'? ceux qui s'autorisent de la raison;
c'est suspecter les dogmatismes officiels mais sans profit pour les
charlatans, c'est r?v?rer le g?nie mais sans en faire une idole, c'est
toujours pr?f?rer ce qui est ? ce qu'on pr?f?rerait qui f?t."
(Jean Rostand, Le droit d'?tre naturaliste, 1963).
"L'id?e de commander et d'?tre ob?i est le propre d'une mentalit?
infantile. Cela explique que les dictateurs soient des gens immatures."
(Jorge Luis Borges, "L'id?e de fronti?res et de nations me para?t absurde",
Le Monde Diplomatique, ao?t 2001).
___________________________________
2014-04-06 19:00 GMT+02:00 <taxacom-request at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>:
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> ____________________________________
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Killifish biogeography (John Grehan)
> 2. Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop (Alain Dubois)
> 3. Re: Panbiogeography (JF Mate)
> 4. Re: Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
> (Doug Yanega)
> 5. Re: Panbiogeography (Michael Heads)
> 6. Re: Panbiogeography (John Grehan)
> 7. Stuart Fullerton (stuartf)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 13:19:19 -0400
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Killifish biogeography
> To: Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <CADN0ud0om+iGUP4wW1UguV5uj6xh> H-yYpf5RhcT60s0_BVkEQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Briggs asserts that the Cyprindondiformes are part of the Antherinomorpha
> for which the oldest fossil dates are from the early to mid-Tertiary and
> alognth older fossils are not precluded, their appearance becomes "less
> probable" as time goes by. No explanation of what this means
> scientifically.
>
>
>
> Then Briggs makes a huge leap in logic by saying "If, as the fossil
> record *seems
> to indicate*, the aplocheiloid fishes are too young to have been carried
> about on tectonic plates, how did they achieve their cir-cumglobal range?"
>
>
>
> This reads as a slight of hand, by claiming that the fossil records "seems
> to indicate" that the fishes are too young and therefore they are to young,
> and having established that claim (not evidence) they must have achieved
> their range without being carried on tectonic plates. The rest of his
> argument is the invention of centers of origin and dispersal routes. Pure
> fiction.
>
> JohnGrehan
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Michael,
> > Oh yes, there was definitely a response by dispersalist Briggs
> > (Briggs J. C., 2003. Fishes and birds: Gondwana life raft. reconsidered.
> > Syst. Biol.;52:548-553). And Sparks and Smith (2005) then responded to
> > Briggs (about the killifish and cichlids). It is a very interesting
> > debate, and I am not yet fully convinced by either side on the killifish
> > debate. I was at first inclined to accept vicariance as the major factor
> > in killifish biogeography, but now I am back on the fence and looking
> more
> > carefully at dispersal (even across the ocean barrier between Madagascar
> > and Africa).
> > -----------------Ken Kinman
> > Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 10:08:07 +1300
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> > From: m.j.heads at gmail.com
> > To: kinman at hotmail.com; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Hi Ken, I didn't mean to imply that there was a debate about this group.
> > Murphy & Collier (1997) accepted vicariance, but I don't know if there
> have
> > been any responses to this from dispersalists.
> > Michael
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Michael,
> > I don't know much about the debate concerning killifish
> > biogeography, but assume (since you brought it up) that it must still be
> > controversial (as with the cichlid fishes we discussed previously). I
> can
> > certainly see how the killifishes could be one of the few taxa which
> > survived on Madagascar during the K-T extinction which killed off so many
> > other vertebrates there. Especially since some killifish can enter
> > diapause during periods of drought and/or starvation.
> >
> > Are you asking my opinion whether I side in this particular case
> > with the dispersalists or those advocating vicariance? If so, I would
> have
> > to look at the dispersalist arguments on the other side of the debate.
> Are
> > there any recent papers still suggesting dispersal played a major role in
> > the broad (worldwide) biogeography of killifish? Sounds like an
> > interesting debate.
> >
> > --------------------------Ken
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:39:23 +1300
> > > From: m.j.heads at gmail.com
> > > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> > >
> > > Hi Ken,
> > >
> > > The aplocheiloid killifish illustrate a standard pattern, with two main
> > > clades (Fig. 2-3 in my 2012 book). One is in America, and (another
> >
> > > subclade) mainland Africa. It's not in Madagascar, and you might
> > > assume that this was the result of extinction there. But the other main
> > > clade is in Madagascar and the Seychelles, and also (another
> >
> > > subclade) from India to Java.
> > >
> > > You could explain the pattern by chance dispersal from anywhere within
> > the
> > > whole range, e.g. Guatemala or Gabon or Goa. Chance dispersal is not
> > > related to any other factor, and so this wouldn't make any particular
> >
> > > predictions.
> > >
> > > As an alternative, both groups could have been everywhere to begin
> with,
> > > and you could explain the pattern by the chance extinction of the first
> > > group from Madagascar - Java, and the chance extinction of the second
> > group
> >
> > > from America and Africa. This would predict fossils in the area of
> > absence,
> > > but none have ever been found. It's also difficult to imagine why one
> > group
> > > would go extinct in an area that is exactly allopatric with the area
> > where
> >
> > > the other group went extinct. This explanation also leaves the original
> > > differentiation of the groups unaccounted for.
> > >
> > > Or you could explain the pattern by simple vicariance, with the first
> > break
> >
> > > located between Africa and Madagascar, at the Mozambique Channel. This
> > > would make the general predictions that other groups would show similar
> > > patterns, and that there would be a simple correlation between the
> > pattern
> >
> > > and tectonics, climate or some other environmental factor. Note that
> the
> > > first break, between Africa and Madagascar, comes before the secondary
> > > breaks (between America and Africa, and between Madagascar-Seychelles,
> > and
> >
> > > India - Java). This is congruent with the continental breakup sequence.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Ken Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > Hi Juerg,
> > > > Well, certainly not a nude rock. However, as I explained in
> an
> > > > earlier posting, the end-Cretaceous extinction wiped out a lot of
> taxa
> > > > (most vertebrates and probably all mammals). This left it with a lot
> > of
> >
> > > > empty niches which new mammals and birds, etc. would fill during the
> > > > early-to-mid Tertiary.
> > > > But I suppose John would deny that the end-Cretaceous
> > extinction
> > > > was that bad in Madagascar. I am giving up arguing with him about
> >
> > > > Madagascar, because he just repeats the same old fallback positions,
> > and
> > > > now claiming that there is no "analytical evidence" for dispersal to
> > > > Madagascar. It might not be strictly analytical evidence according
> his
> >
> > > > definition of analytical, but there is plenty of evidence. He simply
> > > > refuses to accept any of it. I should have given up trying to
> reason
> > with
> > > > him a long time ago.
> > > > -------------------Ken Kinman
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > From: demarmjc at hotmail.com
> >
> > > > > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 17:00:29 -0400
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > Seeing the comments by our dispersalist friends, I wonder then,
> > whether
> > > > Madagascar was empty, a piece of nude rock, before the "great
> > migration"
> > > > out of Africa?
> >
> > > > > Juerg De Marmels
> > > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand. My recent books: Molecular panbiogeography of the
> > tropics. 2012. University of California Press, Berkeley.
> > www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn—80520271968
> > Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis. 2014. Cambridge
> > University Press, Cambridge. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 07:32:15 +0200
> From: Alain Dubois <adbionomina at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature Workshop
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAC56Ws4YPWM89GTPt5Bp49+gcqhww6hJ0_SkvpXBe0-B_kDQ+g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
>
>
> On 9-10 July 2014, a workshop devoted to "Burning questions and problems of
> zoological nomenclature" will be held in Linz (Austria).
>
>
>
> The objectives of this meeting are threefold:
>
>
>
> (1) to allow the encounter of zoologists interested in questions of
> nomenclature, questioning the pertinence of some recent evolutions of the
> *Code*, and worrying about other possible evolutions;
>
>
>
> (2) to discuss freely and openly some of the burning questions and problems
> of zoological nomenclature;
>
>
>
> (3) to prepare a special issue of the journal *Bionomina* (Magnolia Press)
> reporting these discussions and proposing some solutions to some of the
> problems identified.
>
>
>
> Scientific Committee: Erna Aescht, Linz (Secretary); Aaron Bauer,
> Villanova; Edward C. Dickinson, Eastbourne; Pierre-Andr? Crochet,
> Montpellier; Alain Dubois, Paris (Chairman); Ivan L?bl, Gen?ve; Antoine
> Louchart, Lyon; Andr? Nem?sio, Uberl?ndia; Annemarie Ohler, Paris.
>
>
>
> This meeting is open to all interested zootaxonomists willing to contribute
> to this constructive discussion.
>
>
> If you would like to receive information about the meeting and its detailed
> program, just contact Erna Aescht <e.aescht at landesmuseum.at> or myself <
> adbionomina at gmail.com>.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Alain Dubois
>
> Professor
>
> ____________________________________
>
> Professeur Alain Dubois
> Mus?um National d'Histoire Naturelle
> Institut Syst?matique, Evolution, Biodiversit? (ISYEB) - UMR 7205
> Reptiles & Amphibiens
> CP 30
> 25 rue Cuvier
> 75005 Paris
> France
>
> emails: adbionomina at gmail.com, adpeerj at gmail.com, adubois at mnhn.fr
>
> Chief Editor, Bionomina
> <http://www.mapress.com/bionomina>
>
> Nomenclature Editor, Zootaxa
> <http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/>
>
> Academic Editor, PeerJ
> <https://peerj.com>
> ____________________________________
>
> "La culture ce n'est pas avoir le cerveau farci de dates, de noms ou de
> chiffres, c'est la qualit? du jugement, l'exigence logique, l'app?tit de la
> preuve, la notion de la complexit? des choses et de l'arduit? des
> probl?mes. C'est l'habitude du doute, le discernement dans la m?fiance, la
> modestie d'opinion, la patience d'ignorer, la certitude qu'on n'a jamais
> tout le vrai en partage; c'est avoir l'esprit ferme sans l'avoir rigide,
> c'est ?tre arm? contre le flou et aussi contre la fausse pr?cision, c'est
> refuser tous les fanatismes et jusqu'? ceux qui s'autorisent de la raison;
> c'est suspecter les dogmatismes officiels mais sans profit pour les
> charlatans, c'est r?v?rer le g?nie mais sans en faire une idole, c'est
> toujours pr?f?rer ce qui est ? ce qu'on pr?f?rerait qui f?t."
> (Jean Rostand, Le droit d'?tre naturaliste, 1963).
>
> "L'id?e de commander et d'?tre ob?i est le propre d'une mentalit?
> infantile. Cela explique que les dictateurs soient des gens immatures."
> (Jorge Luis Borges, "L'id?e de fronti?res et de nations me para?t absurde",
> Le Monde Diplomatique, ao?t 2001).
> ___________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 09:08:36 +0200
> From: JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> To: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <CADQJvRxJowye=OSxEm-c=yJHHGrF> kLqP_AiUOSGMmC6A9BjAA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Ken. Sorry for replying so late but i am currently travelling around.
> Your optimism is refreshing but ultimately a waste of effort. There is no
> evidence that you can offer them that will satisfy them because you don't
> know (or them I suspect) what they are arguing against. Whereas you, I or
> most others can accept vicariance and dispersal as mechanisms (and have
> said so repeatedly) we are labelled dispersalists. Go figure.
> When you show them clear, factual evidence of organisms being sent across
> the ocean, these events are either "too frequent" or so infrequent that the
> probabilities cannot be calculated and therefore no different to astrology
> (so much for only being interested in data). What you will never be shown
> are the definitions under which they operate. Funny since they are
> interested in patterns and this requires some sort of operational
> definitions. But when a man's livelihood depends on not understanding
> something, then they won't, no matter what you say.
> "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how
> smart you are. If it doesn't agred with experiment, it's wrong." Stuff can
> cross oceans, let them fight facts if they want. I have critters to catch.
>
> Best
>
> Jason
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 01:31:46 -0700
> From: Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Linz International Zoologucal Nomenclature
> Workshop
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Message-ID: <534110F2.5040902 at ucr.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 4/5/14 10:32 PM, Alain Dubois wrote:
> > Dear Colleagues,
> >
> > On 9-10 July 2014, a workshop devoted to "Burning questions and problems
> of
> > zoological nomenclature" will be held in Linz (Austria).
> >
> > The objectives of this meeting are threefold:
> >
> > (1) to allow the encounter of zoologists interested in questions of
> > nomenclature, questioning the pertinence of some recent evolutions of the
> > *Code*, and worrying about other possible evolutions;
> >
> > (2) to discuss freely and openly some of the burning questions and
> problems
> > of zoological nomenclature;
> >
> > (3) to prepare a special issue of the journal *Bionomina* (Magnolia
> Press)
> > reporting these discussions and proposing some solutions to some of the
> > problems identified.
> >
> > Scientific Committee: Erna Aescht, Linz (Secretary); Aaron Bauer,
> > Villanova; Edward C. Dickinson, Eastbourne; Pierre-Andr? Crochet,
> > Montpellier; Alain Dubois, Paris (Chairman); Ivan L?bl, Gen?ve; Antoine
> > Louchart, Lyon; Andr? Nem?sio, Uberl?ndia; Annemarie Ohler, Paris.
> >
> > This meeting is open to all interested zootaxonomists willing to
> contribute
> > to this constructive discussion.
> >
> > If you would like to receive information about the meeting and its
> detailed
> > program, just contact Erna Aescht <e.aescht at landesmuseum.at> or myself <
> > adbionomina at gmail.com>.
> >
> >
> Alain: Out of curiosity, did you invite any actual ICZN Commissioners,
> or intend to allow for Skype participation for those who cannot travel
> to Linz? Also, I assume you have read the ICZN's rebuttal of your recent
> paper (http://www.mapress.com/file/d/zt03779p005.pdf) and the "burning
> questions" you raised therein?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --
> Doug Yanega Dept. of Entomology Entomology Research Museum
> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314 skype: dyanega
> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
> http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
> "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
> is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 22:16:31 +1200
> From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> To: JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> Cc: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <CAF_uauCWBoOMn3OQ> ZhkN4Nx3yj5mAa40ZiyuP21fSHeh_t02w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> Getting back to the facts, a taxacomer just sent me a classic that I hadn't
> spotted: a chameleon on Socotra that has a diverse sister group
> widespread through the Sahel (Mali to Somalia), around the Mediterranean,
> Saudi Arabia and east to India (not on Socotra). It's in Macey et al., 2008
> Mol Phylogen Evol 49: 1015.
>
> This is the sort of thing you see in many groups in the Caribbean and the
> SW Pacific. It's very simple to explain the pattern by an early break in a
> widespread ancestor, somewhere around Socotra. If you want to explain it by
> the usual dispersal from the mainland, you have to bring in other, ad hoc
> hypotheses. But the main point is just how starkly and beautifully it
> highlights the significance of Socotra, whatever the actual mechanism.
>
> Michael
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 7:08 PM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Ken. Sorry for replying so late but i am currently travelling around.
> > Your optimism is refreshing but ultimately a waste of effort. There is no
> > evidence that you can offer them that will satisfy them because you don't
> > know (or them I suspect) what they are arguing against. Whereas you, I or
> > most others can accept vicariance and dispersal as mechanisms (and have
> > said so repeatedly) we are labelled dispersalists. Go figure.
> > When you show them clear, factual evidence of organisms being sent across
> > the ocean, these events are either "too frequent" or so infrequent that
> the
> > probabilities cannot be calculated and therefore no different to
> astrology
> > (so much for only being interested in data). What you will never be shown
> > are the definitions under which they operate. Funny since they are
> > interested in patterns and this requires some sort of operational
> > definitions. But when a man's livelihood depends on not understanding
> > something, then they won't, no matter what you say.
> > "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how
> > smart you are. If it doesn't agred with experiment, it's wrong." Stuff
> can
> > cross oceans, let them fight facts if they want. I have critters to
> catch.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Jason
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My recent books:
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics.* 2012. University of California
> Press, Berkeley. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn—80520271968
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. 2014. Cambridge
> University Press, Cambridge. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 11:05:31 -0400
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Panbiogeography
> To: JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com>
> Cc: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <CADN0ud2iwRiy> gUzLb1o-UksF_4xxhL-VcWeAz_Xip6Lbm54fA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I for one do not recall if Jason or Ken have been labeled dispersalist, but
> I do recall identifying particular approaches that were cited by them (or
> one or the other) as dispersalist because those approaches invoked
> dispersal from centers of origin.
>
>
>
> Evidence of organisms being sent across the ocean are indeed factual. I
> would not attempt to label their probabilities as to their effect on
> biogeographic patterns. It is dispersalist accounts for the origin of
> trans-oceanic distributions that have often identified the dispersal as
> mysterious etc. But back to the observed events. The indeed occur. The
> question that they raise is to what extent they are responsible for the
> observed vicariant patterns of distribution? They are often invoked as
> evidence that overwater dispersal was responsible for these distributions
> in relation to current ocean geography, but are they? Panbiogeography (as
> I understand it) in some ways reverses the argument to look at patterns and
> from analysis of those patterns make inferences about the role of dispersal
> capability and observed dispersal events in the present.
>
>
>
> There is nothing wrong with dispersal hypotheses being generated, but it is
> how they are generated that is often problematic. In most cases where
> molecular similarity is used to construct phylogeny the authors also
> misrepresent minimal divergence estimates as actual or maximal and from
> that misrepresentation (which is sometimes deliberate as the authors begin
> by acknowledging that the estimates are minimal but 'forget' about that
> when constructing the historical events) they generate fictional evidence
> of dispersal. I understand that Ken and perhaps others consider the gap
> between the oldest fossil and the age of a vicariance divergence event is
> too great to be acceptable, but such judgment seems to rest largely on a
> personal belief rather than any empirical requirement. Some, for example,
> may consider it too incredible for Old and New World monkeys to have
> already diverged in the Cretaceous or earlier in the absence of fossils.
> And maybe it is too incredible, but whether the fossil record is accurate
> about these groups or not is another matter - given that so many taxa lack
> fossils at all, or purportedly old taxa have a relatively recent fossil
> record (I think tuatara only go back a few million years for example).
>
>
>
> When it comes to considering dispersal or vicariance, it is not whether one
> stands for either or both in general, but how one reaches those conclusions
> for particular cases. In the killfish example one has a geographic pattern
> that is consistent with a vicariant history (and is congruent with other
> groups of different dispersal capabilities). On the other hand, Briggs just
> says that the fish are too young and take his word for it. Other approaches
> might use divergence estimates to predict overwater dispersal based on
> misrepresenting minimal divergences as maximal. In some cases of freshwater
> patterns it has been argued that some members or some related group shows
> saltwater tolerance and so marine migration is possible. In theory yes, but
> again what might constitute evidence as to whether or not that was
> significant in the origin of particular patterns?
>
>
>
> When a taxon located either side of an ocean basin comprises one sub clade
> that is also on both sides, but vicariates with another subclade on the
> other side (this is a very common biogeographic pattern as I presume Jason,
> Ken and most others on this list interested in biogeography are aware so
> apologies in advance for stating the obvious), one has a primary divergence
> that is not between the ocean 'barrier'. A vicariance explanation would be
> that the divergence predated the 'barrier' and so the 'barrier' was not a
> 'barrier' as such in the context of the origin of the taxon. I suppose a
> dispersal hypothesis could be generated for this pattern in some way
> allowed the taxon to be so highly dispersible as to cross an ocean, but
> also not sufficiently dispersible to prevent vicariant divergence in the
> first place, or maintain the subsequent vicariism.
>
>
>
> Overall, for modern life, spatial analysis of differentiated taxa indicates
> that dispersal is critical for the origin of ancestral ranges within a
> former geography predating the origin of modern ocean basins and many other
> modern geomorphological features both on land and in the sea.
>
>
>
> I look forward to reading a specific analysis of Heads' book by Jason and
> Ken.
>
>
> John Grehan
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 3:08 AM, JF Mate <aphodiinaemate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Ken. Sorry for replying so late but i am currently travelling around.
> > Your optimism is refreshing but ultimately a waste of effort. There is no
> > evidence that you can offer them that will satisfy them because you don't
> > know (or them I suspect) what they are arguing against. Whereas you, I or
> > most others can accept vicariance and dispersal as mechanisms (and have
> > said so repeatedly) we are labelled dispersalists. Go figure.
> > When you show them clear, factual evidence of organisms being sent across
> > the ocean, these events are either "too frequent" or so infrequent that
> the
> > probabilities cannot be calculated and therefore no different to
> astrology
> > (so much for only being interested in data). What you will never be shown
> > are the definitions under which they operate. Funny since they are
> > interested in patterns and this requires some sort of operational
> > definitions. But when a man's livelihood depends on not understanding
> > something, then they won't, no matter what you say.
> > "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how
> > smart you are. If it doesn't agred with experiment, it's wrong." Stuff
> can
> > cross oceans, let them fight facts if they want. I have critters to
> catch.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Jason
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 15:23:00 +0000
> From: stuartf <stuartf at knights.ucf.edu>
> Subject: [Taxacom] Stuart Fullerton
> To: "Edwards, G.B." <GB.Edwards at freshfromflorida.com>, alaina bernard
> <alaina.bernard at ucf.edu>, Al Newton <anewton at fieldmuseum.org>,
> Alan M
> Bunner <culveral at mac.com>, alan fickett <dockirby at aol.com>, andy
> deans
> <adeans at gmail.com>, "andy_deans at ncsu.edu" <andy_deans at ncsu.edu>,
> Cuminale <Cuminale at knights.ucf.edu>, arlene ruddick
> <arudduck at csbt.com>, "Arthur V. Evans Evans"
> <arthurevans at VERIZON.NET>, barbara erwin <
> berwin at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>,
> Barbara Offineer <Barbara.Offineer at ucf.edu>, barry thys
> <blthys at msn.com>, Ben G <bmg1110 at gmail.com>, Benny Peavey
> <chefbbp at yahoo.com>, bernard varley <bvarley at cfl.rr.com>, betsy
> von
> holle <vonholle at mail.ucf.edu>, Bill clark <
> clarkfam1 at mindspring.com>,
> boze kokan <boze.kokan at gmail.com>, Bo?e <
> boze.kokan at st.t-com.hr>, buck
> <buckmb at gmail.com>, charles michner <michener at ku.edu>, "charles
> rolsky
> 2012" <crolsky at asu.edu>, cheryl barr <cbarr at nature.berkeley.edu>,
> chris mah <brisinga at gmail.com>, chris mah <mahch at si.edu>,
> chris
> parkenson <cparkins at mail.ucf.edu>, clay scherer
> <clay.w.scherer at usa.dupont.com>, "cliff turnell"
> <cliff.turnell at cgimotion.com>, cliff turnell <
> cturnell at cgimotion.com>,
> "Almquist, David" <DAlmquist at admin.fsu.edu>, "david almquist"
> <daidunno at hotmail.com>, david almquist <dalmquist at fnai.org>,
> "david
> jenkins" <david.jenkins at ucf.edu>, david jenkins
> <dgjenkins at mail.ucf.edu>, david kelly <david_kelly at fws.gov>, david
> lovejoy <dlovejoy at westfield.ma.edu>, david lovejoy
> <dlovejoy at wsc.ma.edu>, david wahl <aei at aei.cfcoxmail.com>,
> "dean
> michael johnson" <michael.johnson2 at ucf.edu>, dean rhodes
> <rhoadsd at trinityprep.org>, Dennis Frank <
> denniswfrank at yahoo.com>,
> "dennis kelly" <dkkellys at msn.com>, Derek Woller
> <dwoller at knights.ucf.edu>, "Derek Woller" <asilid at gmail.com>,
> "Dobbins, David L Dobbins" <david.l.dobbins at lmco.com>, don
> webb
> <dwebb at inhs.uiuc.edu>, doug noah <dnoah at drml-law.com>,
> Doug Yanega
> Yanega <dyanega at UCR.EDU>, drake gomez <drake.gomez at keystone.edu>,
> drew
> thomas <drew522 at gmail.com>, "ecn - entomologial coll network"
> <ecn-l at listserv.unl.edu>, Ed Zoll <ezoll321 at gmail.com>,
> eleanor
> gladding <egladding at swca.com>, elliot vittes <elliot at ucf.edu>,
> entomo-l <entomo-l at listserv.uoguelph.ca>, Eric Eaton Eaton
> <bugeric24 at YAHOO.COM>, eric katenkamp <ekatenkamp at yahoo.com>,
> erik
> katenkamp <erik.katenkamp at publix.com>, fly times stephen gaimari
> <sgaimari at cdfa.ca.gov>, frank kurczewski <fkurczewski at twcny.rr.com
> >,
> "frank logiudice" <franktlogiudice at gmail.com>, frank logiudice
> <floguidi at mail.ucf.edu>, frank parker <astata at comcast.net>,
> "frank.krell at dmns.org" <frank.krell at dmns.org>, Fred Sherberger
> <f.sherberger at gmail.com>, Gary Gibson <Gary.Gibson at AGR.GC.CA>,
> "gary
> square gary" <gbambam61 at gmail.com>, Gary Steck
> <Gary.Steck at freshfromflorida.com>, gayle story <
> gstory at mail.ucf.edu>,
> george hertel <gherteljr at me.com>, "hanna stephens"
> <hannacarolines at gmail.com>, "hector.cardona at ucf.edu"
> <hector.cardona at ucf.edu>, "Hojun song" <entomos at gmail.com>,
> hojung
> song <song at mail.ucf.edu>, "Frank,J H" <jhfrank at UFL.EDU>, ina
> carpenter
> <ina.carpenter at ucf.edu>, ina carpenter <icarpent at mail.ucf.edu>,
> istvan
> Miko <istvan.miko at gmail.com>, amruth.rd <
> amruth.rd at knights.ucf.edu>,
> Jack stout <jstout at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>, I Stout <
> I.Stout at ucf.edu>,
> Jacques rifkins <Clerid at AOL.COM>, "james (riverside) bryant"
> <jbryant at riversideca.gov>, "james pitts" <james.pitts at usu.edu>,
> Janet
> Mah <jntmah at yahoo.com>, "Jarrett, Ray"
> <Ray.Jarrett at freshfromflorida.com>, jason gibbs <
> dialictus at gmail.com>,
> "jeff erickson" <jerickso at ucf.edu>, jason gibbs
> <jason.gibbs at cornell.edu>, "jerome rozen" <rozen at amnh.org>,
> jerry
> klein <eugene.klein at ucf.edu>, jim wiley <
> wileyj at doacs.state.fl.us>,
> Jim Woolley <jimwoolley at tamu.edu>, joe hart <
> jhartpi at hotmail.com>,
> joel gomer <jgomer at gmail.com>, john brubaker <
> jbrubaker911 at gmail.com>,
> John Fauth <John.Fauth at ucf.edu>, john fauth <
> jfauth at mail.ucf.com>,
> john grehan <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>, john hearty
> <john.heraty at ucr.edu>, john weishample <jweisham at mail.ucf.edu>,
> jon
> longhurst <oilpatchtrucker at gmail.com>, josh king
> <joshua.king at ucf.edu>, josh mcgoldrick <mcgoldjb at yahoo.com>,
> joshua
> reece <josh830 at gmail.com>, JustinGibbons
> <JustinGibbons at knights.ucf.edu>, justin schmidt
> <ponerine at dakotacom.net>, karen copeland <
> krccpa at copelandcpa.com>,
> Karlie Carman <karlielino3 at knights.ucf.edu>, katharine fulkerson
> <k0fulkz1 at hotmail.com>, kathy schick <
> kaschick at uclink.berkeley.edu>,
> kathy schick <kaschick at berkeley.edu>, "kelly (foundation lady)
> dowling" <kelly.dowling at ucf.edu>, ken fedorka
> <kenneth.fedorka at ucf.edu>, "kevin williams" <
> kevin.williams at usu.edu>,
> "Williams, Kevin" <Kevin.Williams at freshfromflorida.com>,
> kim gulledge
> <kgulledge at admin.fsu.edu>, kris o'donnell <odonnell at mail.ucf.edu>,
> "laurie von Kalm" <lvonkalm at mail.ucf.edu>, leon sholman
> <elares at 4fast.net>, linda berlin <berlinl at seminolestate.edu>,
> lorie
> von kalm <laurence.vonkalm at ucf.edu>, "Louis Sorkin Sorkin"
> <sorkin at AMNH.ORG>, Loyd Myatt <snakedoctor at earthlink.net>, "lubo
> masner" <lmasner at gmail.com>, margaret thayer
> <mthayer at fieldmuseum.org>, mark <mark at olkiewicz.com>, "Deyrup,
> Mark"
> <MDeyrup at archbold-station.org>, "mark olkiewicz"
> <mark.olkiewicz at gmail.com>, mark Olkiewicz <markoinla at yahoo.com>,
> marla schwsarzfeld <schwarzf at ualberta.ca>, mary kime
> <rsnyder11 at cfl.rr.com>, mary turnell <Mmturn at aol.com>, matt
> yoder
> <diaprid at gmail.com>, matt yoder <diapriid at gmail.com>, maureen
> fitzgerald <mf6904 at gmail.com>, "maureen fitzgerald"
> <mfitzgerald at csun.edu>, "Michael A. Ivie Ivie" <mivie at montana.edu
> >,
> michael ohl <michael.ohl at mfn-berlin.de>, michael ray <
> mray at pbsj.com>,
> mike irwin <meirwin at illinois.edu>, Mike Quinn Quinn
> <entomike at GMAIL.COM>, mike sharkey <msharkey at uky.edu>, mike smith
> <msmith at thehealthlawfirm.com>, Mike smith <msmith539 at cfl.rr.com>,
> mike
> thomas <michael.thomas at freshfromflorida.com>, molly rightmyer
> <molly_rightmyer at yahoo.com>, Neal Evenhuis Evenhuis
> <neale at bishopmuseum.org>, nhcoll <nhcoll-l at lists.yale.edu>,
> Norm
> Johnson <johnson.2 at osu.edu>, "Penny, Norm" <
> NPenny at calacademy.org>,
> olmi <olmi at unitus.it>, pat rogers <qtera31 at yahoo.com>,
> patrick bohlen
> <patrick.bohlen at ucf.edu>, Paul Blom <blom.paul.e at gmail.com>,
> Paul
> Johnson <Paul.Johnson at SDSTATE.EDU>, "Skelley, Paul"
> <Paul.Skelley at freshfromflorida.com>, Petr ento-pins
> <ento-pins at kabatek.cz>, Philip Edwards <Philip.Edwards at ucf.edu>,
> phil
> edwards <pedwards at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>, phillip russell
> <pjruss1973 at earthlink.net>, "Russell, Phillip J - APHIS"
> <phillip.j.russell at aphis.usda.gov>, "rani vajravelu"
> <rani.vajravelu at ucf.edu>, ray jarrett <
> jarretr at doacs.state.fl.us>,
> reece halpern <rh at halpernlawoffice.com>, Richard Fagerlund
> Fagerland
> <richardfagerlund at YAHOO.COM>, richard westcott
> <rwestcott at oda.state.or.us>, robert barney <
> rbarney at wvstateu.edu>,
> robert holmes <robert.holmes at ucf.edu>, Robert Zuparko
> <rz at berkeley.edu>, rodger lawerence <rodclaw at bellsouth.net>,
> roger
> barker <regor.barker at gmail.com>, roger burks <
> burks.roger at gmail.com>,
> ron shurtz <shurzj at aol.com>, Ron Raby <ronraby1940 at gmail.com>,
> "roni
> vajaravelu" <vajraver at mail.ucf.edu>, ross hinkle <rhinkle at ucf.edu
> >,
> sam droege <sdroege at usgs.gov>, Sandor Kelly <
> Sandor.Kelly at ucf.edu>,
> sandra nixon <skfnixon at yahoo.com>, sante traps <
> sante at santetraps.com>,
> saul frommer <sfrommer at verizon.net>, scott shaw <
> braconid at uwyo.edu>,
> scott silver <scottjordansilver at gmail.com>, mccarthy84
> <mccarthy84 at knights.ucf.edu>, sebastian roesinger
> <sjroesinger at gmail.com>, slkelly <slkelly at knights.ucf.edu>,
> shawn
> kelly <poguesboy at hotmail.com>, Sheri Pearson <
> Sheri.Pearson at ucf.edu>,
> "Somma, Louis Somma" <sommal at doacs.state.fl.us>, Hojun Song
> <song at ucf.edu>, Stephen Thorpe Thorpe <
> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> steve heydon <slheydon at ucdavis.edu>, "steven jacobs"
> <steven.jacobs at ucf.edu>, steven mah <stevesm83 at comcast.net>,
> "susan
> abbott-jameison" <sabbottjam at comcast.net>, susan abbott-jamieson
> <susan.abbott.jamieson at gmail.com>, sven drewitz
> <sdrewitz at hotmail.com>, "sven drewtz" <sven.drewitz at web.de>,
> taxacom
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "terry griswold"
> <terry.griswold at ars.usda.gov>, tim gately <tg0867 at yahoo.com>,
> "Tom
> ellis" <pilot at satx.rr.com>, tom post master nelson
> <tom.nelson at ucf.edu>, tori sowell <torirs at mac.com>, tori sowell
> <vrsowell at yahoo.com>, travis sims <tsims45 at cfl.rr.com>, "victor
> dragon culture choi" <dragonculture10 at gmail.com>, vince lee
> <vlee at calacademy.org>, "vinnie - vincerz coella"
> <wolfy452002 at yahoo.com>, Volker Lohrmann
> <Volker.Lohrmann at mfn-berlin.de>, von kalm <lvonkalm at ucf.edu>,
> Walter
> Taylor <Walter.Taylor at ucf.edu>, walter sweetpea taylor
> <wtaylor at mail.ucf.edu>, walter taylor <
> wtaylor at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>,
> "Wiley, Jim" <James.Wiley at freshfromflorida.com>, will crampton
> <crampton at mail.ucf.edu>, William Crampton <
> William.Crampton at ucf.edu>,
> "Mah, William" <w.mah at sbcglobal.net>, zach prusak <
> zprusak at tnc.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> 4cfac4bc052242c4bcbb85954d974863 at DM2PR07MB558.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
> This is Sandor Kelly (Stuart's friend, and the collection manager at UCFC,
> for those that don't know), and I am writing all of you on Stuart's contact
> list to sadly inform you that Stuart passed away on Saturday. Apparently he
> died without struggle, probably from a heart attack.
>
> The last time I saw him was on Friday, at work, and I am happy to say it
> was a good day for him. Many of our volunteers/workers were here and he had
> a good time going through his routine and being around people he cared
> about and vice versa.
>
> I will let you all know what is happening as I know more.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Sandor Kelly
>
>
> Stuart M Fullerton ROF, Research Associate Arthropod
>
> Collection (UCFC), Dept. of Biology, University of Central Florida, PO
>
> Box 162368, Orlando, Florida, 32816-2368, USA. stuartf at knights.ucf.edu
>
> <mailto:stuartf at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>(407) 823-6540 (no voice mail),
> http://bugcloset.cos.ucf.edu/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
>
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
>
> Celebrating 27 years of Taxacom in 2014.
>
> End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 97, Issue 6
> **************************************
>
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