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[Taxacom] Poor flying hoatzins dispersed (on flotsam) from Africato S. America?

John Grehan jgrehan at sciencebuff.org
Mon Oct 10 10:54:34 CDT 2011 

From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
[mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Jensen


John,

> I know you don't believe definitions matter, but here it does.  To
make an assumption is
>  not the same as creating a fantasy.  

It is when there is no empirical basis

? The definition of assum[tion] has nothing to do with creating
fantasies!  

In this case the authors assume that the birds crossed the Atlantic on
flotsam. It is indeed a fantasy because it is not based on any empirical
evidence. Indeed their fantasy is the application of Darwin's original
imaginings about centers of origin and dispersal, for which any
alternative was to be regarded as calling in the agency of a miracle. 

> But, if you insist it does, then,do you admit that you are you
creating a fantasy when 
> you assume that morphological features support an orang-human clade.
You may not have 
> used the word assume, but that is what you are doing.

In correct. It was not an assumption at all. The morphological evidence
clearly points in that direction. Perhaps one could say that its an
assumption that morphology can predict phylogeny. And perhaps that is
indeed a fantasy, as would all assumptions (which is why assumptions
have the potential to be demonstrated as such.  In the case of the
hoatzin the authors also assume that the birds originated after the
opening of the Atlantic.

John Grehan

Dick J

On 10/10/2011 9:53 AM, John Grehan wrote:
>   What do you mean "mind my manners"? What I said appears to be 
> correct - that the hoatzin 'dispersal' is nothing more than an 
> "assumption" - in other words something that is imagined - a fantasy.
>
> John Grehan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin Leech [mailto:releech at telus.net]
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:38 AM
> To: John Grehan; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Poor flying hoatzins dispersed (on flotsam) 
> from Africato S. America?
>
> John,
> Mind your manners.  Non-migrating birds do not have the ability to fly

> much more than about 600 km before coming down.  Same with flying 
> insects (those caught up in winds and carried to the jet streams - 
> they are another matter!). That is, those insects that are using wing 
> power to fly have a 400 mile, or 600 km,limit. Take your choice.
> Spiders, on the other hand, balloon, and can arrive, after travelling 
> several thousands of km, fresh as a daisy, as they have not had to 
> expend energy along the way.
> Robin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of John Grehan
> Sent: October-09-11 10:06 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Poor flying hoatzins dispersed (on flotsam) 
> from Africato S. America?
>
> Good grief. No wonder geologists don't take biogeographers seriously.
> According to the press release the authors say that "We assume that 
> the bird crossed the Atlantic upon drifting flotsam.". In other words 
> its all an assumption, a fantasy. Creationists are obviously not the 
> only purveyors of fantasy - some evolutionists are also deep in the 
> same camp in this respect.
>
> John Grehan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Kenneth 
> Kinman
> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 10:29 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: [Taxacom] Poor flying hoatzins dispersed (on flotsam) from 
> Africato S. America?
>
> Dear All,
>        A very recently published article provides a probable example 
> of a major taxon (Order Opisthocomiformes) establishing itself in 
> South America having drifted on flotsam from Africa during the
Cenozoic.
> Unlike other such cases, this involves a bird (and a poorly flying 
> one, and with a life style which makes it a perfect candidate among 
> birds to have made such a trip).
>       At first, I was frankly a bit skeptical, as this dispersal would

> have taken place tens of millions of years ago, and thus not quite the

> "slam-dunk" example of a Nile crocodile making the same dispersal trip

> much later in time.  There is also the problem that the closest 
> relatives of the hoatzin are still very uncertain.
>       However, in spite of my initial wariness, I believe it more 
> likely that the hoatzin family (presently classified in a monotypic 
> Order) most likely did (as the this paper suggested) originate in 
> Africa and introduce itself into South America by flotsam dispersal 
> across the Atlantic Ocean (and then subsequently went extinct in 
> Namibia, or any other parts of Africa in which it may have originally 
> lived).  If there is another equally likely (or more likely) 
> explanation for this new information on hoatzin origins, I would 
> certainly find it interesting (given my initial skepticism about such
an unexpected hypothesis).
> However, at present I am inclined to see it as yet another case of 
> unexpected dispersal (not vicariance).  Anyway, see one discussion of 
> this recent paper through the weblink below.
>                -----------Ken Kinman
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111004175929.htm
>
>
>
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--
Richard J. Jensen, Professor
Department of Biology
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, IN 46556
Tel: 574-284-4674


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