[Taxacom] Poor flying hoatzins dispersed (on flotsam) from Africato S. America?

[Richard Jensen]

John,

I know you don't believe definitions matter, but here it does.  To make 
an assumption is not the same as creating a fantasy.  The definition of 
assume has nothing to do with creating fantasies!  But, if you insist it 
does, then,do you admit that you are you creating a fantasy when you 
assume that morphological features support an orang-human clade.  You 
may not have used the word assume, but that is what you are doing.

Dick J

On 10/10/2011 9:53 AM, John Grehan wrote:
>   What do you mean "mind my manners"? What I said appears to be correct -
> that the hoatzin 'dispersal' is nothing more than an "assumption" - in
> other words something that is imagined - a fantasy.
>
> John Grehan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin Leech [mailto:releech at telus.net]
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:38 AM
> To: John Grehan; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Poor flying hoatzins dispersed (on flotsam) from
> Africato S. America?
>
> John,
> Mind your manners.  Non-migrating birds do not have the ability to fly
> much more than about 600 km before coming down.  Same with flying
> insects (those caught up in winds and carried to the jet streams - they
> are another matter!). That is, those insects that are using wing power
> to fly have a 400 mile, or 600 km,limit. Take your choice.
> Spiders, on the other hand, balloon, and can arrive, after travelling
> several thousands of km, fresh as a daisy, as they have not had to
> expend energy along the way.
> Robin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of John Grehan
> Sent: October-09-11 10:06 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Poor flying hoatzins dispersed (on flotsam) from
> Africato S. America?
>
> Good grief. No wonder geologists don't take biogeographers seriously.
> According to the press release the authors say that "We assume that the
> bird crossed the Atlantic upon drifting flotsam.". In other words its
> all an assumption, a fantasy. Creationists are obviously not the only
> purveyors of fantasy - some evolutionists are also deep in the same camp
> in this respect.
>
> John Grehan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Kenneth Kinman
> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 10:29 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: [Taxacom] Poor flying hoatzins dispersed (on flotsam) from
> Africato S. America?
>
> Dear All,
>        A very recently published article provides a probable example of a
> major taxon (Order Opisthocomiformes) establishing itself in South
> America having drifted on flotsam from Africa during the Cenozoic.
> Unlike other such cases, this involves a bird (and a poorly flying one,
> and with a life style which makes it a perfect candidate among birds to
> have made such a trip).
>       At first, I was frankly a bit skeptical, as this dispersal would
> have taken place tens of millions of years ago, and thus not quite the
> "slam-dunk" example of a Nile crocodile making the same dispersal trip
> much later in time.  There is also the problem that the closest
> relatives of the hoatzin are still very uncertain.
>       However, in spite of my initial wariness, I believe it more likely
> that the hoatzin family (presently classified in a monotypic Order) most
> likely did (as the this paper suggested) originate in Africa and
> introduce itself into South America by flotsam dispersal across the
> Atlantic Ocean (and then subsequently went extinct in Namibia, or any
> other parts of Africa in which it may have originally lived).  If there
> is another equally likely (or more likely) explanation for this new
> information on hoatzin origins, I would certainly find it interesting
> (given my initial skepticism about such an unexpected hypothesis).
> However, at present I am inclined to see it as yet another case of
> unexpected dispersal (not vicariance).  Anyway, see one discussion of
> this recent paper through the weblink below.
>                -----------Ken Kinman
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111004175929.htm
>
>
>
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-- 
Richard J. Jensen, Professor
Department of Biology
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, IN 46556
Tel: 574-284-4674