[Taxacom] Save the Order Bromeliales or "Their can only be one taxonomic philosophy!"

[Richard Zander]

We can define "hypothesis" variously (see Kirk Fitzhugh's papers for a
decent discussion).

But a morphological cladogram simply provides a natural key to the
descriptions used for generating the data set (a bad key if labile
traits are weighted equal to conservative traits). It is tautological or
gobbledegook.

A molecular cladogram is a direct representation of (heuristically
generated) optimization of genetic continuity of some gene histories. It
is not generative of a theory of anything. That theory should include
all data if it is scientific. The molecular cladogram is only an
interpretation of some data. The nesting is not a theory of descent with
modification since shared ancestors are unnamed and hidden causes,
totally unscientific. 

* * * * * * * * * * * *
Richard H. Zander
Missouri Botanical Garden, PO Box 299, St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA  
Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/ and
http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site:
http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm


-----Original Message-----
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
[mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Ashley Nicholas
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 4:00 AM
To: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Subject: [Taxacom] Save the Order Bromeliales or "Their can only be one
taxonomic philosophy!"



In support of Richard and Kenneth. 
 
Am I being naive here, but I have always been under the impression that
classifications and cladograms are nothing more than hypotheses (yes I
know many taxonomist are deluded in believing "their classification" to
be the truth). A good classificatory hypothesis should carry the most
information (in regard to morphology, molecules, biogeography, ecology
and evolution) and also be powerfully predictive/deductive. Excessive
monophyly and excessive paraphyly both cause important information to be
lost. Personally, the sinking of Bromeliales loose important information
to the end users of our classifications, so I think this is the wrong
way to go. On the present taxonomic battle field, the battle cry of
"Their can only be one taxonomic philosophy!" is beginning to sound like
scientific dogma. Dogma unfortunately always sets of warning bells in my
head . 
 
Ashley
Durban, South Africa
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
>>> On 2011/10/03 at 05:13, in message
<COL103-DS191351D5F5FC491E0A448AA0FA0 at phx.gbl>, Kenneth Kinman
<kennethkinman at webtv.net> wrote:

Hi Richard,
      While I realize that your observation (that such elimination of
paraphyletic taxa could be a boon to "elderly taxonomists") was offered
with a bit of sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek, it is certainly no laughing
matter.  And actually, phylogeneticists are not only eliminating
paraphyletic taxa, but creating even larger numbers of new clade names
at a rate that even I find alarming (I love clades, but formally naming
them with the slightest bit of new data can be terribly premature and
destabilizing).  Therefore we have large numbers of new names to digest,
many which will not stand the test of time, at the same time that
perfectly good paraphyletic taxa are being thrown on the garbage heap
(which we agree is not helpful).      
      Anyway, I can't help but wonder if the abandonment of the
perfectly good Order Bromeliales (among others) into APG's bloated Order
Poales was an attempt to avoid potential paraphyly (perhaps the same for
their bloated Order Malpighiales).  The Order Bromeliales continues to
be recognized by large numbers of people (biologists and gardeners
alike), and yet the APG seems unwillingly to reverse any of their
extreme lumping (even that one).  Are they afraid of paraphyly jumping
up and biting them in the behind, or are they just intransigent
(unwilling to admit they made a mistake)?  Once it was shown that Order
Hydatellales (which they also sunk into Poales) was not even a monocot),
it was a perfect opportunity to reassess the wisdom of their
overlumping, but instead they just ejected it apparently without
reevaluating the wisdom of a bloated Order Poales (even without it).

      Anyway, I see no good reason to continue lumping either Order
Bromeliales or Order Typhales within such a heterogenous and monstrous
Order Poales.  They are distinct not only in morphology, but molecularly
as well, so there is no excuse for it.  It is time for APG to reverse at
least one of their excessive overlumpings, and this one is at the top of
my list for such a reversal.       
      -----------Ken Kinman                    
---------------------------------------------------------       

Richard Zander wrote:   
     Perhaps we will not have to remember so many names as
phylogeneticists eliminate any name that has macroevolutionary
connotations, i.e. those that create paraphyly in classification. Given
that estimates and simulations in the literature indicate that more than
50% of present-day taxa have extant ancestors, we can expect these to be
soon nameless, a boon to us elderly taxonomists. 
This may get in the way of understanding macroevolutionary
relationships, but does not halt microevolutionary studies.  




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