[Taxacom] proper use of "de" in a French name

[Jacques Melot]

  Le 8/04/08, ? 12:40 +0200, nous recevions de Hans Henderickx :

>Splitting or omitting parts of a name does not sound well to me, what do you
>think of:
>
>Beauvoir grew up in a respected borgeois family, ... (Simone de Beauvoir)
>
>this should be
>
>De Beauvoir grew up in a respected borgeois family, ....
>
>Hans


[J. M.]  Malheureusement, c'est le contraire. 
Lorsqu'on ne donne pas le nom complet, on utilise 
??Beauvoir???seul et non ??de Beauvoir??. Dans le 
dictionnaire, le nom de cet auteur se trouve ? la 
lettre B et non ? la lettre D (m?me chose pour 
??de Gaulle??, par exemple).

    On dit (et on ?crit) ??avec Sartre et 
Beauvoir?? et non ??avec Sartre et de Beauvoir??. 
Par contre on dit (et ?crit)?: ??ce soir je d?ne 
avec de Gaulle, Beauvoir et les Boissieu??. 
Pourquoi ??de?? seulement pour ??de Gaulle???? 
Parce que ??gaulle?? est r?duit ? une seule 
syllabe (??gol??), alors que ??Beauvoir?? et 
??Boissieu?? (deux noms avec la particule ??de??) 
sont constitu?s de deux syllabes (ou plus).

    La r?gle est plus compliqu?e encore, car il y 
a des usages fix?s qui contredisent la r?gle. 
L'usage est flottant avec le nom ??de Candolle??, 
mais ??avec Candolle?? n'a rien d'incongru et est 
sans doute la formulation ? recommander. De m?me, 
on doit dire et ?crire ??avec Jussieu??, non 
??avec de Jussieu ??(en France, il y a des ??rue 
Jussieu??, mais il n'y a pas de rue, d'avenue ou 
de boulevard Gaulle; seulement rue, av., bd de 
Gaulle).

    Pour r?pondre ? la question initiale, le bon 
usage veut qu'on ?crive ??Bonvouloir's specimens 
are said to be [...]??, de m?me qu'en fran?ais on 
?crira ??Il para?t que les sp?cimens de 
Bonvouloir sont [...]??. C'est la r?gle que les 
nobles eux-m?mes appliquent.

    Les r?gles sont plus compliqu?es en Belgique 
o? les noms comportant la particule ??de?? 
suivent des r?gles influenc?es par les r?gles en 
usage aux Pays-Bas et chez les Flamands, r?gles 
plus compliqu?es qu'en France (leur cas a ?t? 
trait? jadis dans le journal Taxon).

    En r?alit?, les francophones ne connaissent en 
g?n?ral pas les r?gles concernant les particules 
et donc font suivant ce qu'ils sentent, d'o? des 
usages contradictoires qui ne sont que dans 
l'ensemble corrects, ce que Google permet de 
constater ("Sartre et Beauvoir" = 4740 occ., 
"Sartre et de Beauvoir" = 783 occ.; "avec 
Beauvoir" = 473 occ., "avec de Beauvoir" = 5 
occ.).

    Bref, on aurait mieux fait de les guillotiner tous?!

    Bonne journ?e,

    Jacques Melot


>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jean-Fran?ois Molino" <jean-francois.molino at ird.fr>
>To: "Michael A. Ivie" <mivie at montana.edu>
>Cc: <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:32 AM
>Subject: Re: [Taxacom] proper use of "de" in a French name
>
>
>Mike,
>I'm an actual French (nobody's perfect), and I agree with Laurent. I
>would recommend to omit the "de".
>
>Jean-Fran?ois Molino
>
>Laurent Raty a ?crit :
>>  Mike,
>>
>>  Starting a sentence without a capital letter is definitely *not*
>>  normally an option, even ;-) in French.
>>
>>  You can try http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particule_(onomastique) if you
>>  want general guidance about the formal use of such names in French.
>>
>>  "Bonvouloir's specimens" should theoretically be the best choice if you
>>  want to start your sentence that way: omitting the "de" is the general
>>  rule if the name stands alone (i.e., is not preceded by a first name
>>  [Victor de Bonvouloir], another patronym [Achard de Bonvouloir], or a
>>  title [vicomte de Bonvouloir, monsieur de Bonvouloir]).
>>  There are exceptions, though; most notably, with very short names (not
>>  more than one non-mute syllabe), the "de" would normally be retained; a
>>  "du", "des" or "d'" would usually also be retained.
>>
>>
>>  (Now, I think I would qualify as an "actual Francophone", but I'm not
>>  an actual French. Here in Belgium, we are in a slightly peculiar
>  > situation, because we are facing a mixture of many Flemish surnames
>>  starting with the Dutch article "De" [often followed by a profession or
>>  quality, like in "De Smet" - literally "The Smith" -, or "De Wit" - "The
>>  White"], with actually much less numerous French surnames starting with
>>  the French preposition "de" [not that exceptionally followed by a
>>  Flemish locality name]. This makes things a bit confused at times and,
>>  perhaps as a result, we often tend to retain any "de"/"De" whatever its
>>  meaning. So my ears would in fact not really be offended by a sentence
>>  starting with "De Bonvouloir's specimens" either...)
>>
>>
>>  Hope this helps,
>>  Laurent -
>>
>>
>>
>>  Michael A. Ivie wrote:
>>
>>>  Not my question, which was "how would a Francophone do it", with a
>>>  request that it be answered by an actual Francophone.  I know well
>>>  how the Anglophones would mangle it.
>>>
>>>  Mike
>>>
>>>  Edwards, G.B. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>  But when starting a sentence in English (Mike's question), the
>>>>  first word is always capitalized, as far as I can recall, even a
>>>>  normally uncapitalized article in a foreign language.  A perhaps
>>>>  more interesting and applicable question regards the subsequent
>>>>  geneology of the Vicomte in question:  Did his descendants adopt
>>>>  Bonvouloir, de Bonvouloir, or (not inconceivably) Henry as the
>>>>  surname.  I would argue that whichever of these is subsequently
>>>>  correct (if there was only one) would be the name to be cited.  As
>  >>> Mike noted, Vicomte de Bonvouloir is a title, not a surname.