Fwd: Re: Biogeographic memory

[STEPHEN MANNING]

>Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:58:43 -0500
>To: "John R. Grehan" <jrg13 at PSU.EDU>
>From: STEPHEN MANNING <SDMANNING at ASUB.ARKNET.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Biogeographic memory
>
>At 11:00 AM 8/24/01 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Granted. But still not something that Turner et al can be accused of...
>>
>>No, and I did not make any such accusation.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I may have been hasty, basing my comments only on Croizat 1962 (Space,
>>>Time, Form: The Biological Synthesis), and possibly (excusably?) even
>>>overlooking some statements in those 822 pages.
>>>The point remains that Craw, Grehan and Heads are quite adamant that
>>>biogeographic analysis is not to be informed by phylogenetic analysis
>>>based on other characters.
>>
>>Perhaps if some specific quotes were given here this could be discussed.
>
>May I interject something here from left field?  I agree that
>biogeographic analysis probably is not to be informed by phylogenetic
>analysis based on other characters, but what about the opposite?  I do
>believe that phylogenetic analysis can be informed by biogeographic
>considerations, if paleoclimates as well as present climates can be
>determined with reasonable certainty.  What do you think about this?
>
>Steve
>
>>>This raises the question how different two distribution patterns must be
>>>to be distinguishable by such different means of dispersal. Given the
>>>choice between a butterfly and a freshwater group, would one be safe in
>>>venturing that a pattern ranging from New Guinea to Samoa is more likely
>>>to be the butterfly and a pattern restricted to Borneo more likely the
>>>fish? I do not ask for certainty - simply for a rational reason to make a
>>>choice.
>>
>>One might make such assertions but that would be on the basis of other
>>preconceptions about the origin and evolution of particular areas. The
>>point about this example is that Mayr said that poor dispersing primary
>>freshwater fish have totally different distribution patterns from
>>butterflies. I emphasize the word 'totally'. The examples given were
>>presented as a fish and butterfly group with similar distribution ranges
>>with some local differences. There is no objective criterion to predict
>>which range is necessarily the fish or butterfly. One may claim that the
>>range in the Pacific is "more likely" to be a butterfly based on some
>>preconceived position, but that's all it would be. The same goes for the
>>more restricted distribution of one group than the other in the Middle
>>East. Means of dispersal does not provide a predicable relationship with
>>distribution range or pattern.
>>
>>
>>>>I believe the points raised by Hovenkamp show that Croizat's works are in
>>>>deed relevant to all aspects of biogeography
>>>That was certainly not my intention...
>>
>>Sorry, but that's how the discussion seems to have developed.
>>
>>>>paleocontinents. In contrast Croziat's analyses suggests the biogeography
>>>>is not complicated in this respect.
>>>
>>>Then it must be other respects that make Croizat's analyses appear so
>>>complicated ;-)
>>
>>No, I was just referring to this particular respect as that was what Turner
>>et al were referring to.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Quite a lot of systematic analyses pertaining to the region have been
>>>performed since Croizat (1968). It might be a good idea if someone would
>>>integrate these in a panbiogeographical framework. Preferably in less than
>>>400 pages...
>>
>>Why less than 400 pages? Does this mean that such issues do not warrant
>>such pagination while other issues do?
>>Hovenkamp will be pleased to know, however, that steps in that
>>'integration' are current. A couple of examples are Heads on Abrontanella,
>>and Heads in press (J. Biogeography) on birds of paradise. Craw of course
>>has published numerous papers integrating phylogeny in general with
>>panbiogeography and of course the panbiogeography book does quite a lot of
>>this.
>>
>>John Grehan
>>
>>Frost Entomological Museum
>>Pennsylvania State University
>>Department of Entomology
>>501 ASI Building
>>University Park, PA 16802. USA.
>>
>>Phone: (814) 863-2865
>>Fax: (814) 865-3048
>>
>>Frost Museum
>>http://www.ento.psu.edu/home/Frost/index.html